Ranger's training thread

[mrfit]

...they go from 6:27.5 to 6:41.5 ?

nice skill

Improving your rowing technique is quite a trick.

It takes a while to put a new stroke together.

The 6:41 was done without sharpening, with pretty good OTW technique, but at max drag.

That is, it was done without preparation and with some pretty large internal contradictions.

Fully sharpened and without those contradictions, that is, fully sharpened and rowing well at low drag (118 df.), I'll now pull 6:16.

The 6:27.5 was fully sharpened but rowing poorly at max drag.

ranger

Right, Lucy. Charlie Brown? Did you here that?

[hjs]

Oh my God...Henry, you must have been livid when he went and bought the Fluid.

nah We all know the man, more dishounest they don,t come.

[PaulH]

Just row along easily (70% HRR) at 22 spm for an hour or so.

How fast are you going?

1:49, as I do, or 1:59?

Liar

Or, ouch, 2:09, like you?

ranger

No, because I'm honest enough to say that I don't row (at any pace) for an hour. Neither do you, you're just not honest enough to admit it.

I could use your logic, of course, and say that I row at 1:49 for an hour or so, in the sense that I can pull strokes at 1:49 during a period of time that exceeds an hour. But that would be dishonest, which I leave to you.

[Carl Watts]

I do find this thread even more amusing reading now due to the fact I'm now rowing just a bit better than Ranger it is so easy to see the BS.

Your 60min average pace without breaks is now 1:56 (and getting worse by the minute) if your lucky not 1:49 so get used to it.

You cannot do 1:49.0 for 20 minutes without a break at any rating, let alone 60minutes, why don't you actually try it. We don't need the HR or even the spm info it is no longer relavent, you physically cannot do it anymore.

Look I will make this real easy for you, just post your everyday training row, not racing it just rowing it as you do everyday, just pick a distance 5k, 6k,10k 60min whatever as long as it is a row without breaks and post the screenshot result with HR and SPM information.

I'm wasting my time even typing this because I know you will not post it because of the fact the Monitor doesn't lie, it's there in black and white and you just cannot face reality.

Your still rowing really well for your age, just dispense with the BS and be honest about your current performance and we will then take you seriously.

[mikvan52]

Personally, I wonder why ranger feels this need to say: "My goal is to be the best in both sports. I will do this by training on the erg and concentrating on SPI to the exclusion of (a whole host of training routines and theories)."

Because, basically, if they have the same commitment to training, everyone the same age and weight rows at about the same rate.

The rower with the biggest stroke wins.

For Senior and Veteran lightweights, a standard rate for 2K is 34-36 spm.

Dennis rates 34-36 for 2K.

Roy rates 34-36 for 2K.

You rate 34-36 for 2K.

I rate 34-36 for 2K.

Mike C. rates 34-36 for 2K.

Paul Siebach rates 34-36 for 2K.

Graham Watt rates 34-36 for 2K.

Etc.

Pace is rate x SPI (watts/stroke).

The rower with the biggest stroke wins.

At 8 SPI, as most 60s lwts stroke it out, 36 spm is 7:04, just the time of the 60s lwt hammer at WIRC 2010.

At 13 SPI, as the best young lwts stroke it out, 36 spm is 6:04, a minute faster, just the time of the Open lwt hammer at WIRC 2010.

The difference is 15 seconds per 500m: 1:31 vs. 1:46.

For a lightweight of any age, 13 SPI is rowing perfectly.

8 SPI is rowing like a little old man.

ranger

So.. I take it from all this rambling that the reason you exclude other training other than focus on watts v. stroke rate in short bursts is......?....?......?.....?
IOW: Once again you failed to answer the question.
Again: Why exclude other forms of training rather than the 'one big stroke' stuff?...

Grade: D-
( I don't 'fail' anyone. No child left behind.)

Anyway: You have never documented any prolonged rowing/erging piece (w/o a break) at 13 spi.
You have never even logged a single IND_V piece 2k or beyond on the erg as a lwt.
Why not 'warm-up' with an IND_V at whatever weight your are now and show us 13 spi? (as others have suggested)

You state that you do 'all your rowing at 13 spi. Show us.
no video please.... just an IND_V in the rankings... 2k, 5k, 30', 10k', 6k.... your choice...

Remember: You've already 'closed the door' on the "when I'm fully trained" bull by saying ad nauseum: "I do all my rowing at..... and "I am done with low rate rowing on the erg"....
So come on ! 28 spm OTErg... Let's see it!

BTW: 1:38.5 pace @ 28 spm for 2k is just a hair over 13 spi
and is a WR for 55-59 lwts

Dream on 'Reid Frawd'!
For almost 5 years you've been unable to row 1:38.5 pace for 2k at any rate....




Caution:
Rich: One more reminder: Be careful not to let the pace ease off to 1:40 (where you were last spring)
Then your spi drops to 12.5 and the other imaginary cub scouts in Camp Ranger-land will take away your "best lwt" patch!
... but they might give you some of the milk and cookies if you ask nicely.

[mikvan52]

☠ Danger! ☠
the following implied advice is dead wrong

Re: Ranger's training thread
by ranger » September 12th, 2010, 4:37 am


"I will be sharpening.... for the next six months."

It is not possible to sharpen for 6 months.
No one sharpens continuously on a weekly basis for 6 months, especially older athletes.
And (!) it would hurt you to even try.

✔ If anyone is even partially persuaded that such training works, ask someone else you trust for verification.

☣☣☣☣☣☣☣☣☣☣☣☣☣☣☣

[NavigationHazard]

Apologies to U2:

I have combed through the Forum
I have groped through the posts
Only to see 5k
Only to see 5k
I have searched,I have trawled
I have sifted these sh***y scrawls
These sh***y scrawls
Only to see 5 k
But I still haven't found what I've been looking for

I have read endless posts
Found innumerable boasts
You bleat like a liar
And nothing transpires
You have rowed with the
Stroke of the angels,
You have hauled the anchor of Spracklen
You posted a 5k?!
So where's it today?

No I still haven't found what I've been looking for
No I still haven't found what I've been looking for

I believe in the Easter Bunny
Then you'll pay Henry's conscience money
Hell yes he's still waiting
You move your lips, you're a flat-out liar
Never to sharpen
Or distance trial
Or distance trial
You know I believed you

But I still haven't found what I'm looking for
But I still haven't found what I'm looking for

[mikvan52]

These exerpts might put the whole thing in perspective.
IOW: Instead of saying what doesn't work, it would be good to say what does!


These are quoted from another part of this forum and I keep them on file for the athletes I coach:

Linda’s concepts
To consider
For the Erg

… July 2, 2006…. IRDS forum ( C2 Indoor Rorwing (team) Development Squad .. (ended in 2007))

“4. Many exercise physiologists working with rowing athletes preparing for 2km suggest that 70-80 % of the time spent training should be done in the aerobic area. From conversational pace to the point when you are unable to whistle while you row. 10-15% of your time should be spent in the anaerobic threshold area which include over-distance race pieces like 3 x 10 min- 2 x 6km or pieces like (1:40 work / :20 rest x 10 ) x2 where the intensity is greater than you could normal row 20 min. straight but not as fast as you would row 1:40 with lots of rest. 10 % at speeds greater than race pace with even to 3 times work length for rest This includes 1 min on/ 1 min off, 6-8 x 500m with 3-5 min rest or (3 x 2:00/2:00) x 2, 3-6 x 1000 m with 5 -8 min rest. Some physiologist believe that 3-5 % of this 10% should be done at speeds and load which will last only 10-30 seconds with 6-8 minutes rest. Here we are trying to achieve maximum watts on an erg or maximum speed in your single, etc within the first 7-10 seconds and then try to hold on. Building this type of rowing specific power has a trickle down value when you return to training your other energy paths, since if you build greater power then for the same heart rate or perceived exertion you will actually be working at a higher work level or watts. For example if you are able to raise your maximum power by 30-50 watts then training at 60-70% of you aerobic rower will be between 18-30 watts higher as a result of improved power.

5. Finally, most physiologists suggest that attacking each energy system regularly is important. Since this will provide the body with a variety of stresses and adaptations which will benefit more that one system. If you train 400-500 hours in a year, trying to pack 40-50 hrs of over speed training in the last month of training before major races would be impossible. So consider a little speed every week. We don’t want to body to habituate at low turnover rates (stroke rates) and moderate speeds. A little pedal to the metal should be part of the weekly diet.”

….July 20, 2006…Larry Gluckman
“Dear Team,
While Linda Muri is away at the U23 world championships I wanted to provide some training ideas for you to consider along with what you are already doing. .....

Below are some workouts based on a 12-day cycle that does not include your self-decided rest days....... training needs a certain level of variety and sometimes working the same area of fitness in a different way may be just the tonic to break through a plateau you have been stuck on.

Linda and I we be modifying the offering as we approach the selection 2K piece.

12-workout schedule spread over 14 days (Seven types, as follows) Choose any workout out of each group according to the scheme
There is nothing special about 12 workouts. They could represent 2 weeks of work and can be supplemented with weight lifting and other forms of cross training.

1. Aerobic Development-Conversational Efforts
(3-4 times per 12-workout schedule)

• 4-5 x 15 min. with 1 min rests for water and quick stretches: vary stroke rate 20,22,24,22,20
• 3 x 20 min. with 2-3 rest strokes can vary from rep. to rep.: rates 18, 20, 22, 24
• 2-3 x 30 min. with 5 min rest(s): rates 20-22




2. High Aerobic-Excellent for distance race preparation
Respiration should be elevated but no burn (3-4 times per 12 workout schedule)

• 50 minutes divided into 10-5 minute sections 17, 19, 21, 23, 25 then back to 17 strokes per minute.
• 48 minutes of 3 min. @18, 2 min. @22, 1 min. @26, at the end of 6 minutes repeat the 3, 2, 1 cycle
• 60 minutes alternating between stroke rates every 12 minutes between 17 and 26.


3. Anaerobic Threshold Development
If you have done a 5K test piece use that pace/500m min (+/- 1-2 sec.) example: 5K pace is 1:54 training should be between 1:56-1:52 depending on how you are feeling. (1 time per 12-workout schedule)

• 4 x 12 minutes with 3-5 min. rest – stroke rate 20, 26, 20, 26
• 10 x 5 min with 2-3 min. rest – stroke rate 24-26
• 10 x 3 min with 30 sec. rest, start slightly above 5k pace then gradually bring the pace down. Stroke rate 24-26
• 3-4 x 2km with 5 min rest – stroke rate 22-24
• 15 x 1:40 work with 20 sec. rest at 24-26 after piece 8 paddle through a work/rest period and then complete the last 7 intervals.

4. Race rate rowing at 5k minus 3-4 sec.
For example: If your 5k pace is 1:52 then row this workout at 1:48-1:49 at your race stroke rate (1 time per 12 workout schedule)

• 4 x 750m with 10 min. active paddling
•2 x 1500m with 10-15 min active paddling
•600 hard strokes equal work to rest in stroke count (10,20,30,30, 20, 10) x 5 with 2 min. rest between sets.



5. Race pace rowing or predictive pace workouts
Over time we have found that these two workouts provide erg rowers with pace information that is within a second plus/minus of their 2000 meter pace. Include in lieu of a faster than race pace rowing once every 2 cycles)

• 6 x 500m with 1 min. rest
• 4 x 1000 meter on 12 min. centers

6. Slightly faster than Race pace rowing
At 5k pace minus 5-7 seconds (1 time per 12 workout schedule)

• 3-4 x 1000 with 10-15 min. active paddling
• 5-7 x 500m with 8-10 min. active paddling
• 2-3(20 x 30sec work with 15 seconds rest) 5 min rest between sets. If you are a stroke counter it is 17 on and 5 off.


7. Maximal recruitment and power rowing
(1-2 times per 12-workout schedule)

• 3 x 5-10 strokes on 2 min. centers- high stroke rate maximal power 6-8 min. active paddling complete this set 5 times for a maximum of 150 strokes.
• 10 x 30 strokes on 5 min. centers- race rate plus 2-4 strokes

Palmer Circuit
2x / 8 days of training:
Strength endurance lifting- Pick a weight for each lift that you can do for all 40 repetitions. Once you complete all 40 reps in a workout increase the weight for the next session. Between each set you must complete 20 core body exercises;

Squat 15 reps (a) 10 reps (b) 5 reps (c) 5 reps (d) 5 reps (e/f)
Bent over Row same as above
Bench Press same as above
Leg Press same as above
Squat High Pull same as above

Core Body Exercise
(a) Angels- like angels in the snow arms out wide at shoulder height and then bring opposite leg to opposite arm.
(b) Superman- on your belly bring legs and arms up together for a count of three then relax
(c) Bend from side to side with 10 pounds in each hand-feet shoulder width apart bring weight below knees
(d) Scullers: (V-sit moving legs and arms like scullers) or bent knee sit ups twisting from side to side when body is near the knees
(e/f) Alternate between doing left and right side elbow bridging and stomach bridging


Rules of Thumb:
• Try not to put two workouts from the same category on consecutive days.
• Consider “easy, moderate, hard, easy” as a sequence for workouts. Realize that volume and intensity can both be hard on the body. So plan accordingly.
• Many of these workouts can be done via cross training, weight circuits and on-off water rowing.
• During summer rowing be mindful of hydration.
• Because of the heat and humidity some rowers need more time to recover from workouts. So if you are not recovering take a day off or just row less and easier.”

[ranger]

Nice 10K out at Portage Lake.

Love the clean, clear water, like mercury, as the blades cut through it.

Spring-fed.

No vegetation.

Yea.

I think I can do the Head of the Grand course at 7 SPI.

So, 2:10 @ 23 spm or 2:08 @ 24 spm might be a place to begin the Monday.

Then I can raise the rate from there.

ranger

[ranger]

Your 60min average pace without breaks is now 1:56 (and getting worse by the minute) if your lucky not 1:49 so get used to it.

Carl--

The issue is not a 60min trial at 1:49.

That would be done at top-end UT1, almost 30 bpm higher.

The issue is UT2.

To pull 6:16 for 2K, you need to be able to row the 60min, 1:49 @ 22 spm, with your heart rate flat at 70% HRR.

For me, that's 145 bpm.

Back in 2003, I did 60min @ 1:48, but that was at a high stroke rate and heart rate (28 spm, 172 bpm).

ranger

[ranger]

These exerpts might put the whole thing in perspective.
IOW: Instead of saying what doesn't work, it would be good to say what does!


These are quoted from another part of this forum and I keep them on file for the athletes I coach:

Linda’s concepts
To consider
For the Erg

… July 2, 2006…. IRDS forum ( C2 Indoor Rorwing (team) Development Squad .. (ended in 2007))

“4. Many exercise physiologists working with rowing athletes preparing for 2km suggest that 70-80 % of the time spent training should be done in the aerobic area. From conversational pace to the point when you are unable to whistle while you row. 10-15% of your time should be spent in the anaerobic threshold area which include over-distance race pieces like 3 x 10 min- 2 x 6km or pieces like (1:40 work / :20 rest x 10 ) x2 where the intensity is greater than you could normal row 20 min. straight but not as fast as you would row 1:40 with lots of rest. 10 % at speeds greater than race pace with even to 3 times work length for rest This includes 1 min on/ 1 min off, 6-8 x 500m with 3-5 min rest or (3 x 2:00/2:00) x 2, 3-6 x 1000 m with 5 -8 min rest. Some physiologist believe that 3-5 % of this 10% should be done at speeds and load which will last only 10-30 seconds with 6-8 minutes rest. Here we are trying to achieve maximum watts on an erg or maximum speed in your single, etc within the first 7-10 seconds and then try to hold on. Building this type of rowing specific power has a trickle down value when you return to training your other energy paths, since if you build greater power then for the same heart rate or perceived exertion you will actually be working at a higher work level or watts. For example if you are able to raise your maximum power by 30-50 watts then training at 60-70% of you aerobic rower will be between 18-30 watts higher as a result of improved power.

5. Finally, most physiologists suggest that attacking each energy system regularly is important. Since this will provide the body with a variety of stresses and adaptations which will benefit more that one system. If you train 400-500 hours in a year, trying to pack 40-50 hrs of over speed training in the last month of training before major races would be impossible. So consider a little speed every week. We don’t want to body to habituate at low turnover rates (stroke rates) and moderate speeds. A little pedal to the metal should be part of the weekly diet.”

….July 20, 2006…Larry Gluckman
“Dear Team,
While Linda Muri is away at the U23 world championships I wanted to provide some training ideas for you to consider along with what you are already doing. .....

Below are some workouts based on a 12-day cycle that does not include your self-decided rest days....... training needs a certain level of variety and sometimes working the same area of fitness in a different way may be just the tonic to break through a plateau you have been stuck on.

Linda and I we be modifying the offering as we approach the selection 2K piece.

12-workout schedule spread over 14 days (Seven types, as follows) Choose any workout out of each group according to the scheme
There is nothing special about 12 workouts. They could represent 2 weeks of work and can be supplemented with weight lifting and other forms of cross training.

1. Aerobic Development-Conversational Efforts
(3-4 times per 12-workout schedule)

• 4-5 x 15 min. with 1 min rests for water and quick stretches: vary stroke rate 20,22,24,22,20
• 3 x 20 min. with 2-3 rest strokes can vary from rep. to rep.: rates 18, 20, 22, 24
• 2-3 x 30 min. with 5 min rest(s): rates 20-22




2. High Aerobic-Excellent for distance race preparation
Respiration should be elevated but no burn (3-4 times per 12 workout schedule)

• 50 minutes divided into 10-5 minute sections 17, 19, 21, 23, 25 then back to 17 strokes per minute.
• 48 minutes of 3 min. @18, 2 min. @22, 1 min. @26, at the end of 6 minutes repeat the 3, 2, 1 cycle
• 60 minutes alternating between stroke rates every 12 minutes between 17 and 26.


3. Anaerobic Threshold Development
If you have done a 5K test piece use that pace/500m min (+/- 1-2 sec.) example: 5K pace is 1:54 training should be between 1:56-1:52 depending on how you are feeling. (1 time per 12-workout schedule)

• 4 x 12 minutes with 3-5 min. rest – stroke rate 20, 26, 20, 26
• 10 x 5 min with 2-3 min. rest – stroke rate 24-26
• 10 x 3 min with 30 sec. rest, start slightly above 5k pace then gradually bring the pace down. Stroke rate 24-26
• 3-4 x 2km with 5 min rest – stroke rate 22-24
• 15 x 1:40 work with 20 sec. rest at 24-26 after piece 8 paddle through a work/rest period and then complete the last 7 intervals.

4. Race rate rowing at 5k minus 3-4 sec.
For example: If your 5k pace is 1:52 then row this workout at 1:48-1:49 at your race stroke rate (1 time per 12 workout schedule)

• 4 x 750m with 10 min. active paddling
•2 x 1500m with 10-15 min active paddling
•600 hard strokes equal work to rest in stroke count (10,20,30,30, 20, 10) x 5 with 2 min. rest between sets.



5. Race pace rowing or predictive pace workouts
Over time we have found that these two workouts provide erg rowers with pace information that is within a second plus/minus of their 2000 meter pace. Include in lieu of a faster than race pace rowing once every 2 cycles)

• 6 x 500m with 1 min. rest
• 4 x 1000 meter on 12 min. centers

6. Slightly faster than Race pace rowing
At 5k pace minus 5-7 seconds (1 time per 12 workout schedule)

• 3-4 x 1000 with 10-15 min. active paddling
• 5-7 x 500m with 8-10 min. active paddling
• 2-3(20 x 30sec work with 15 seconds rest) 5 min rest between sets. If you are a stroke counter it is 17 on and 5 off.


7. Maximal recruitment and power rowing
(1-2 times per 12-workout schedule)

• 3 x 5-10 strokes on 2 min. centers- high stroke rate maximal power 6-8 min. active paddling complete this set 5 times for a maximum of 150 strokes.
• 10 x 30 strokes on 5 min. centers- race rate plus 2-4 strokes

Palmer Circuit
2x / 8 days of training:
Strength endurance lifting- Pick a weight for each lift that you can do for all 40 repetitions. Once you complete all 40 reps in a workout increase the weight for the next session. Between each set you must complete 20 core body exercises;

Squat 15 reps (a) 10 reps (b) 5 reps (c) 5 reps (d) 5 reps (e/f)
Bent over Row same as above
Bench Press same as above
Leg Press same as above
Squat High Pull same as above

Core Body Exercise
(a) Angels- like angels in the snow arms out wide at shoulder height and then bring opposite leg to opposite arm.
(b) Superman- on your belly bring legs and arms up together for a count of three then relax
(c) Bend from side to side with 10 pounds in each hand-feet shoulder width apart bring weight below knees
(d) Scullers: (V-sit moving legs and arms like scullers) or bent knee sit ups twisting from side to side when body is near the knees
(e/f) Alternate between doing left and right side elbow bridging and stomach bridging


Rules of Thumb:
• Try not to put two workouts from the same category on consecutive days.
• Consider “easy, moderate, hard, easy” as a sequence for workouts. Realize that volume and intensity can both be hard on the body. So plan accordingly.
• Many of these workouts can be done via cross training, weight circuits and on-off water rowing.
• During summer rowing be mindful of hydration.
• Because of the heat and humidity some rowers need more time to recover from workouts. So if you are not recovering take a day off or just row less and easier.”

Yawn.

This is all just race preparation.

It doesn't make you better.

If you define training as an opportunity to get better, race preparation is irrelevant to training for rowing.

ranger

[ranger]

No one sharpens continuously on a weekly basis for 6 months, especially older athletes.

What?

Sure, they do.

The Wolverine Plan is race preparation.

If you follow the Wolverine Plan, you are _always_ race ready.

ranger

[ranger]

BTW: 1:38.5 pace @ 28 spm for 2k is just a hair over 13 spi
and is a WR for 55-59 lwts

Dream on 'Reid Frawd'!

When I was 55, in 2006, I pulled 6:29.7 @ 12 SPI, 1:38 @ 31 spm, with a kick for 300m at the end, 1:34 @ 34 spm, and even so, at max drag, without even preparing for it.

I now row well at low drag (118 df.).

As folks like Dennis Hastings and Paul Hendershott have shown, if you take care of business, from 55 to 60, decline with age on the erg is nothing at all.

ranger

[NavigationHazard]

To pull 6:16 for 2K, you need to be able to row the 60min, 1:49 @ 22 spm, with your heart rate flat at 70% HRR. For me, that's 145 bpm.

No you don't; no human being can row at constant pace/rating for an hour while HR stays flat at 70% of HRR (either HR will drift upward, or else pace must deteriorate); no it isn't. Fraud.

Where's that 5k screenshot showing 175 bpm? I still haven't found what I'm looking for.....

Oh, and that 6:29.7 you did in 2006 was as a HW. And the WP isn't about "sharpening." And you don't "row well."

Where's that 5k screenshot showing 175 bpm? I still haven't found what I'm looking for.....

[whp4]

Where's that 5k screenshot showing 175 bpm? I still haven't found what I'm looking for.....

Don't beat yourself up over it too much, ranger hasn't been able find his marbles for years