Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

If the malodorous toad ever takes you up on your repeated offers to scull together be prepared for a withering critique a few days later.

Actually, I would now love to row with Mike, as I was planning to do this year, but had to put off because me boat was delayed.

It is clear that we could now just row together, stroke for stroke.

Our technique is pretty much the same.

I was doing some nice 2:04 @ 24 spm today, just stroking naturally.

If MIke is willing, I would be delighted to renew our plan to row together for a couple of weeks on the Connecticut River.

Next June would be perfect, given that we would both be training for the Head of the Charles 2011, albeit in different age categories.

I will be a Veteran.

Mike will still be a Grand Master.

Mike is still a youngster.

ranger

P.S. Hey, Byron should come along, too. He could give us pointers about our technique, as we powered along 2:04 @ 24 spm and he followed behind at 2:34 @ 24 spm.

[macroth]

Hey ranger,
You fancy yourself an English professor, right? How many copies of your books have you sold? I would hope it's in the tens of thousands at least.
What could you possibly have to teach anyone about poetry or the English language if you've never written anything that people cared to buy and read?

[ranger]

Has anyone ever read analyses of races that include such concepts?

Sure, right here, by you.

And I think you are a pretty good source of information, given that you are now the hwt and lwt OTW National Champion in my age division, two years running.

After every race, pretty much, you talk about how you went fast by rating down.

What have you rated at the Head of the Charles in your various attempts?

Not 32 spm.

Not 30 spm.

Not 28 spm.

Maybe not even 26 spm.

etc.

25 spm?

24 spm?

2:05 @ 24 spm is 10 MPS.

ranger

[ranger]

Can Byron do 10 MPS @ 24 spm OTW?

If he can, I didn't see any evidence for it.

ranger

[mikvan52]

.... given that he doesn't even row well himself, Byron was going to give my pointers about OTW technique by PM, not pointers about training.

What in the world would Byron know about training?

From this we take it that Cureton does not think that technique is part of training

BTW: Nice 2k there today Rich! I didn't think you had it in you!

[KevJGK]

This is ridiculous.

First you ask Byron for a pretty big favour.

Hey, Byron.

I see you are on-line.

How about taking me on a tour of the Grand?

Then after Byron (amazingly) agrees, you decide to belittle him?

WTF?

Got many friends Rich?

I am not belittling anyone.

Coaches should know how to row first, no?

And I am a bit more demanding than that.

I think that coaches should actually be good at rowing.

I don't know what you think, but being (pretty?) good at rowing, I think, would be doing 5K OTW in 20:00.

As I said, if Byron can do that, I would be delighted to listen to him about how to row, and how not.

...

So IMHO, he has some practicing to do before he is in a position to hand out advice.

ranger

I think that is a flawed approach.

Using a boxing analogy, have you ever heard of Cus D’amato? He was never much of a boxer but he was a brilliant trainer. Ever heard of Floyd Patterson, Jose Torres or Mike Tyson? Well Cus D’amato trained those guys to be world champions and do you know what? Not one of them asked him to get in the ring with them to prove he was any good?

Why do you think that somebody has to be as fast as you before you feel they can offer you any useful advice?

I appreciate you are a bit long in the tooth to take advice from just anybody but I would imagine Byron has a wealth of knowledge that could be useful to you.

[mikvan52]

WTF?

....




I think that is a flawed approach.

Using a boxing analogy, have you ever heard of Cus D’amato? He was never much of a boxer but he was a brilliant trainer. Ever heard of Floyd Patterson, Jose Torres or Mike Tyson? Well Cus D’amato trained those guys to be world champions and do you know what? Not one of them asked him to get in the ring with them to prove he was any good?

Why do you think that somebody has to be as fast as you before you feel they can offer you any useful advice?

I appreciate you are a bit long in the tooth to take advice from just anybody but I would imagine Byron has a wealth of knowledge that could be useful to you.

Here, Here! (or is it Hear, Hear! (?))

Btw Rich... I did a 2k today in your honor... and a 1k ... and (another 1k)... albeit OTW
(note the start times of each of the three pieces...
You might want to try a similar set to get ready for the Grand (Illusion)


From my blog:
2k paddle
then
01 Sep
7:42 am
2k in 8:10.6 @ 27.5 spm = 2:02.6 pace & 223 strokes (right on 5k head race pace)

then

01 Sep
7:52 am
1k in 4:10.0 @ 25 spm = 2:04.9 pace & 104 strokes (was going to accept 2:10 pace)
I was working on smoothing out form that wasn't evident in the opening 2k

then

01 Sep
8:00 am
1k in 4:01.6 @ 27.5 spm = 2:00.7 pace & 109 strokes (finished stronger)

[ranger]

From this we take it that Cureton does not think that technique is part of training

On the erg?

True.

You only have to work on technique until you learn how to row.

It's like riding a bicycle.

Once you learn, you never forget.

So you never have to worry about it again.

You can just train.

I am happy to be done with my erg work on technique.

Mike--

You don't worry about your erg work on technique because you don't do any.

On the erg, for a lightweight, rowing well is 13 SPI.

ranger

[mikvan52]

From this we take it that Cureton does not think that technique is part of training

On the erg?

True.

You only have to work on technique until you learn how to row.

It's like riding a bicycle.

Once you learn, you never forget.

So you never have to worry about it again.

You can just train.

I am happy to be done with my erg work on technique.

Mike--

You don't worry about your erg work on technique because you don't do any.

On the erg, for a lightweight, rowing well is 13 SPI.

ranger

RIch:
I respectfully disagree:
Korzonowski and others detail how technique HAS to be monitored on the erg..
Likewise on the water... You cannot relax your vigilance about form...

Do remember that the erg was invented to help OTW rowing... This is why C2 spends so much time and effort refining the machine... and why the model D and E will eventually become obsolete...
You might want to consider such ideas as the seasons pass....

Your statement above that says more or less:

"Technique (is something) you learn (&) never forget.
(Y)ou never have to worry about it again.

You ( ) just train.

(then you are) done."

Is flat out wrong..

[ranger]

[removed]

[ranger]

[removed'

[ranger]

Korzonowski and others detail how technique HAS to be monitored on the erg..
Likewise on the water... You cannot relax your vigilance about form...

Oh, sure, you don't row brain-dead--or do anything else!



But "monitoring" form is not at all the same as learning how to do it--discovering this, discovering that, etc.

As far as I can tell, most people just never figure it out at all and therefore have nothing to "monitor."

They still need to discover things before they can monitor them.

If a 60s lwt pulls 9 SPI on the erg, they are just missing the boat, or, should we say, erg.

They don't understand the leverage involved in the rowing stroke.

They need to discover how to row.

I suspect that Byron is in this situation.

That's the difficulty with his rowing.

He does no significant leveraging.

He just goes through the motions.

ranger

[leadville]

This is ridiculous.

First you ask Byron for a pretty big favour.

Hey, Byron.

I see you are on-line.

How about taking me on a tour of the Grand?

Then after Byron (amazingly) agrees, you decide to belittle him?

WTF?

Got many friends Rich?

I am not belittling anyone.

Coaches should know how to row first, no?

And I am a bit more demanding than that.

I think that coaches should actually be good at rowing.

I don't know what you think, but being (pretty?) good at rowing, I think, would be doing 5K OTW in 20:00.

As I said, if Byron can do that, I would be delighted to listen to him about how to row, and how not.

At the moment, I think that Byron is 30 seconds per 500m from a 20:00 5K OTW.

So IMHO, he has some practicing to do before he is in a position to hand out advice.

ranger

rangerboy, one of the best coaches in the history of US Rowing never pulled a stroke. Alan Rosenberg. One of the best coaches I ever had was a former Yale Cox, Jay Printzlau. Many of the East German coaches never rowed.

You may 'think' coaches should be "good at rowing" (nice grammar, professor clueless) but as usual your thinking would be wrong.

To refer to you as a horse's ass insults both the horse and the terminal end of the excretory system.

[ranger]

rangerboy, one of the best coaches in the history of US Rowing never pulled a stroke. Alan Rosenberg. One of the best coaches I ever had was a former Yale Cox, Jay Printzlau. Many of the East German coaches never rowed.

There is no evidence that Byron Drachman has any relation to these people or their accomplishments.

He has never coached anyone successfully.

And Byron _does_ row--albeit badly.

So your parallel is more a complement than an analog.

ranger

[ranger]

(Y)ou never have to worry about it again.

Indeed.

I don't think that those who have mastered a skill need to "worry" about it again.

"Monitoring" isn't worrying.

It is just disciplined action--which is a delight.

Learning a skill is something pretty different from delighting in skillful performance, as all tennis players are painfully aware.

ranger