drag factor

[bloomp]

The drag factor is irrelevant to how far you travel. That is entirely based upon pace. Pace is a function of how fast the flywheel decelerates. So the higher the drag factor, the more effort you have to put in to make it decelerate slower. It's all about how much power you put into the stroke, not about the DF or anything else.

[Paolo]

my apologies to everyone I'm new to this board, I just noticed I'm in training
sorry for posting to the wrong place

Thanks
Paolo

[Paolo]

my apologies to everyone I'm new to this board, I just noticed that I'm in Training
sorry for posting to the wrong Board
thanks
Paolo

[Paolo]

The drag factor is irrelevant to how far you travel. That is entirely based upon pace. Pace is a function of how fast the flywheel decelerates. So the higher the drag factor, the more effort you have to put in to make it decelerate slower. It's all about how much power you put into the stroke, not about the DF or anything else.

I agree that's why I was confused when I read the C2 page saying that its like a bike gearing, it is in no way like bike gearing. I think the best discription is 10 is rowing a bath tub and 1 is rowing on top of the water

thanks
paolo

[hjs]

double

[hjs]

thanks to everyone for your comments but the Question still is not answered so if you don't mind I will try again
.................this is not a training question................
OK so on my bike....in a high gear ratio lets say 400" of travel..... so for one revolution of the pedal I will travel 400" regardless of how hard I push the pedal or how fast I push the pedal I still only travel 400". If I use a lower gear ratio say 200" again one revalution of the pedal only yeilds 200" of travel again regardless of how hard I push or how fast I push. the simple fact that the pedal went around once yields the distance.......Now having said all that, back to the erg (and forget about training thats not the question) I set the damper to 1 I pull once my travel is 3 meters lets say ... I set the damper to 10 I pull once my travel is XXXX ............that is the question because, to my mind, if as C2 claims on they're web site that the drag is like gearing on a bike then the travel at 10 should be much further. I hope this make my queston a little clearer
again this is a machanical question not a training one.

thanks
Paolo

As I said before no, drag does not matter, because you travel the most meters during the recovery, so high or low drag does not matter. Only PACE does!

Say you row 2.00/500 meter at rate 25, simple math gives you 500/50 = 10 meters per stroke. No matter what drag.

[eliotsmith]

As stated:

just like a bike where you choose a gear to get an optimum Cadence you need to change the lever and hence the Drag to suit

This is where I think C2 is trying to say that it is "like" a bike. Obviously it is not a bike so the comparison can be in one way only.

Eliot

[Carl Watts]

The bottom line is the DF affects your overall performance so you need to do some experimentation to find out what is the optimum for you.

Just dropped the DF here to 131 from 147 and for the first time ever I have just done a sub 1:50 pace distance row.

1:49.9 for a 20 minutes so it would have been a new PB for the 5K for me.

What I suspect is that a given pace and SPM there is an optimum DF you need to find. My average HR fell 3 BPM for the 40min by changing the DF.

[wgr]

thanks to everyone for your comments but the Question still is not answered so if you don't mind I will try again
.................this is not a training question................
OK so on my bike....in a high gear ratio lets say 400" of travel..... so for one revolution of the pedal I will travel 400" regardless of how hard I push the pedal or how fast I push the pedal I still only travel 400". If I use a lower gear ratio say 200" again one revalution of the pedal only yeilds 200" of travel again regardless of how hard I push or how fast I push. the simple fact that the pedal went around once yields the distance.......Now having said all that, back to the erg (and forget about training thats not the question) I set the damper to 1 I pull once my travel is 3 meters lets say ... I set the damper to 10 I pull once my travel is XXXX ............that is the question because, to my mind, if as C2 claims on they're web site that the drag is like gearing on a bike then the travel at 10 should be much further. I hope this make my queston a little clearer
again this is a machanical question not a training one.

thanks
Paolo

The big difference here between biking and erging is that in erging, in addition to the damper setting, your stroke rate and the power you put into each stroke will determine your meters/stroke - the power in your drive and your recovery time are variables here. A better biking analogy is: peddle as hard as possible for 5 seconds, say, (your drive) and then coast for 10 seconds (your recovery). In erging, you have to consider a full cycle - drive and recovery. A single pull in erging is kind of meaningless because, starting from 0 RPM you could probably spin the flywheel faster at lower drag and it will certainly travel farther - more revolutions (but this is not necessarily translated into more meters travelled on the monitor). As others have mentioned, in biking, power is more or less applied continuously while erging has a mandatory coasting phase.

Again in terms of what's best for you over what distance, you will have to determine by trial and error. Every BODY is different and responds differently. Listen to what it's telling you.

[Bob S.]

The big difference here between biking and erging is that in erging, in addition to the damper setting, your stroke rate and the power you put into each stroke will determine your meters/stroke - the power in your drive and your recovery time are variables here. A better biking analogy is: peddle as hard as possible for 5 seconds, say, (your drive) and then coast for 10 seconds (your recovery). In erging, you have to consider a full cycle - drive and recovery. A single pull in erging is kind of meaningless because, starting from 0 RPM you could probably spin the flywheel faster at lower drag and it will certainly travel farther - more revolutions (but this is not necessarily translated into more meters travelled on the monitor). As others have mentioned, in biking, power is more or less applied continuously while erging has a mandatory coasting phase.

Again in terms of what's best for you over what distance, you will have to determine by trial and error. Every BODY is different and responds differently. Listen to what it's telling you.

This difference really shows up when you have a wheeled vehicle that is propelled by pulling on a handle in one direction and having to go back and pull again in the same direction - in other words, the same motion as required in rowing - a drive and a recovery. Byron, whose avatar shows him on one of these vehicles could probably give us the real lowdown on this. I tried one out just once to see what it was like. It was on a flat parking lot and there were no problems other than learning to coordinate the steering. But I wondered what it would be like on hills, where you would be likely to lose all your momentum on the recovery. It would be a lot like rowing into a heavy head wind in a high profile skiff - a scary childhood experience that I still remember very vividly.

Bob S.

[MarathonStan]

Greetings, all,

I've just gotten back somewhat seriously into CII rowing after a long absence, and am again enjoying it greatly. I have questions on a few very distinct points so I'll post them separately, a couple now, another shortly.

In the past, I never paid any attention to the drag factor readings. I go to a Y that has three Model D rowers with PM3 monitors. One machine, which has a terrible feel (rusty chain?) and another, not as bad, have very similar, narrow DF ranges of 75-137 and 72-138. The one I use, and which has a very nice feel, ranges from 70-150. I was surprised at first that I was so comfortable w/the damper at 10, but now I understand that I'm not rowing that far outside the suggested 110-140 range. But none of these rowers has anywhere near the supposed 210-220 top end mentioned on the CII site.

So, my basic question: Does this mean that all 3 machines, including the one I find agreeably smooth, are in bad need of maintenance? Is there something else that could explain the low and narrow ranges? And, although I've been quite pleased w/some of my efforts recently, is it strongly recommended that I drop the damper to 8 or 9 to get the DF under 140?

Finally, for this topic. I have at home a vintage 1991 Model B, still works well, though I like the newer one at the Y better. On mine, I'd like to check the DF, but from the CII page dedicated to the topic, it appears that I may have a PM1 monitor, as simultaneously pressing the Ready and Rest buttons (Rest Time, actually) does nothing. Am I doing something wrong or is it not possible to check the DF w/this monitor?

Thanks for all insights and suggestions.

Stan

[Bob S.]

So, my basic question: Does this mean that all 3 machines, including the one I find agreeably smooth, are in bad need of maintenance? Is there something else that could explain the low and narrow ranges? And, although I've been quite pleased w/some of my efforts recently, is it strongly recommended that I drop the damper to 8 or 9 to get the DF under 140?

The primary maintenance needed for low drag factors is usually just a cleaning out of the cage, especially if the machine seems to be in good shape other wise. Another factor is altitude. If the machines are in Denver or higher, they will give lower readings because the air is less dense. I don't have numbers for this.

Finally, for this topic. I have at home a vintage 1991 Model B, still works well, though I like the newer one at the Y better. On mine, I'd like to check the DF, but from the CII page dedicated to the topic, it appears that I may have a PM1 monitor, as simultaneously pressing the Ready and Rest buttons (Rest Time, actually) does nothing. Am I doing something wrong or is it not possible to check the DF w/this monitor?

If you have a PM1, it will just have Performance Monitor written on it and it will not show the drag factor. The others are labelled as PM2, etc.

The PM2+, the PM3, and the PM4 all show the drag factor (but the PM2+ protocol is different from the others). I don't know about the PM2.

You can have a later model PM installed on a B. Check with C2 for the price, if you are interested. A model B with a PM3 monitor is a great machine.

Note that on a B, there is no problem about getting a dirty cage. It is too open to collect dirt. It is also too open for little fingers, so it is not very safe if children are around.

Bob S.