Ranger's training thread

[mikvan52]

Sure you can train yourself to generate watts but you need to have what it takes to avoid losing a considerable percentage of these watts due to technique. This can only be quantified on the water...not on an erg.

On the erg, the improvement in my finishes this morning was exactly technical.

Then I go out on the water and do the same. ("go" as in "went" or "will go"? - mvb)

The improvement is exactly "quantified on the water," as it is on the erg.

The two are not at all incompatible.

In fact, a good finish OTW, I suspect, is even more important to boat speed that it is to power per stroke on the erg.

ranger

(dryly) as in: no water: So where's the quantification?

[Nosmo]

In fact, a good finish OTW, I suspect, is even more important to boat speed that it is to power per stroke on the erg.

Brilliant. Your suspected insights are amazing.

[ranger]

Then I go out on the water and do the same.

I am doing about 10K a day OTW.

Haven't gone out yet today, but I didn't go out until later yesterday, and got in my 10K just fine.

I erged 15K, at 5 a.m., just before dawn, as I have done for 10 years now.

BTW, I don't think that you should confuse your goals with mine.

My goals are not exclusively OTW.

My first goal is 6:16 at 60 OTErg.

I am not training to achieve your goals.

I am training to achieve mine.

Do you also think, IYHO, that this is misguided, that I should train to achieve your goals, not mine?

Pretty strange, if you do.

This an indoor rowing forum, no?

ranger

[leadville]

Mike--

An ultimate goal for both of us, I think, might be a top-end UT1 pace OTErg of 1:43 @ 29 spm (11 SPI, 10 MPS) and OTW of 1:55 @ 29 spm (8 SPI).

These paces are separated by the ideal difference between erg times and OTW times of 12 seconds per 500m, both absolutely and at the same rate.

On the erg, 1:43 is top-end UTI for a 6:12 2K.

I was doing some 1:55 @ 29 spm OTW yesterday in my Fluid.

I have been doing lots of 1:43 @ 29 spm on the erg for almost a year now.

ranger

1:55 at a 29 is slow. especially when it's 'some' - which for you is about ten strokes.

those of us who race row 1:50s - consecutively.

[leadville]

lights v heavies
in the Charles, the results are also affected by tides. something rangerboy isn't aware of as he's landlocked. the tides have a dramatic effect on times, as they reverse, or double, the current in the river.

The tide at Boston light varies by 7 feet or more, and using the rule of twelves, reaches maximum flow (speed and volume) in the middle two hours between the low and high tides. Therefore, a single racing upriver at maximum flow will be significantly faster than one racing upriver at maximum ebb. The difference can be several mph in speed.

http://www.boatma.com/tides/Oct/Boston- ... arbor.html

[mikvan52]

I am doing about 10K a day OTW.



I erged 15K, at 5 a.m., just before dawn, as I have done for 10 years now.

BTW, I don't think that you should confuse your goals with mine.

My goals are not exclusively OTW.

My first goal is 6:16 at 60 OTErg.

I am not training to achieve your goals.

I am training to achieve mine.

Do you also think, IYHO, that this is misguided, that I should train to achieve your goals, not mine?

Pretty strange, if you do.

This an indoor rowing forum, no?

ranger

Rich: (Honestly) This is and indoor rowing forum and yours is supposedly a training thread...

I don't think that 6:16 is a realistic goal toward which you are doing any training . Your posts are crafted to gain attention not to detail training.
There haven't been any indications that you are willing to share anything more than "I think" and "if I" and "by the end of the month" in pursuit of this "6:16 erg 2k"... This is not training but merely a wish list.

It does keep us all entertained..
You had me fooled for a while when you bought an elite racing 1x. I thought you were going to try to become an elite veteran racer on the water... Even though my posts here are sarcastic, I do not falsify the elements of good OTW training. I do not knowingly draw incorrect conclusions, as you do.

There is no content in your posts... : "some" ; "working with" ; "I saw" is not content... it's banter...
.....

More on your goals:
It is you who stated that your goal is to be in the top 5 at the 2011 HOCR in the Veterans Category, not me. I've pointed out pitfalls (IMO) in your lack of progress based on my own mistakes and experiences (among other things). Perhaps I am misguided in thinking that what I have to say is useful to you or to others...

If you want me to leave this thread for a while just say so. I will honor your request... The only thing I ask in return is that you do not mention me in any of your posts going forward. I've noticed that when I do refrain from posting you always bring me up... "Mike: (how feeble you are)." and such....
I suppose I should just ignore you....

I enjoy the harmless sparring with you here but I wish there was content in your posts. You know that many feel that way (want content) but you do not wish that anyone be gratified in this regard....(Great job.)


"So it goes" ~ sayeth the bard of Ann Arb'

enjoy your erging & sculling and delusions of grandeur. Eat moderately, brush regularly, and all that

[jliddil]

Many thanks to Roland for noticing that I have been "dumping the finish."

Why listen to Roland? As you have stated over and over and over and over. You already have the best coach. Now time for some stupid twisted answer

[Citroen]

It does keep us all entertained..

Eh?

[Nosmo]

Let's say you do erg a 6:16... (perish the thought)(http://www.spaceheatersinhell.com)

Didn't Stan Vegar erg a 6:16 2k.... and what was his time at the HOCR ?

San Diego Rowing Club (Stan Vegar) 20:45.701 bow#42 +00:20.000 9BR(2) (penalty)
21:05.701 10.64% behind winner

Stan weighs 50 lbs. more than we do.

OTW, that's worth 1:37 over 5K.

So, his 21:05, if he weighed 165 lbs., would be 19:28.

I'd be happy with that.

2:01 pace?

That would beat Dietz by a minute, and would beat you, too.

ranger

Lets do the math according to theory:

If Stan had the same erg score but weighed 165 rather then his 206 (so that is 41 lbs not 50).
Then add in the weight of the boat, assuming a 30 lbs boat (FISA limit but in practice it might be more like 27)

21:05 is 1265 seconds.

Theoretical time would then be 1265 * ((165 + 30) / (206+30)) ^ (2/9) = 1212 = 20:12

However that is just theory and you are blowing hot air.


While we are on the subject of numbers and theory.
This really needs to be spelled out and drilled in to your thick skull:
Power in a boat can not be determined by boat speed. There are too many other variables. Different people will make the boat got at different speeds with the same power. SPeed will vary with conditions with the same power for the same person. Speed will vary within the same workout in the same person with changes in rating and technique.
Therefore: ONE CANNOT DETERMINE SPI OTW FROM BOAT SPEED AND RATING. It does not work and is meaningless.

[nharrigan]

lights v heavies
in the Charles, the results are also affected by tides. something rangerboy isn't aware of as he's landlocked. the tides have a dramatic effect on times, as they reverse, or double, the current in the river.

The tide at Boston light varies by 7 feet or more, and using the rule of twelves, reaches maximum flow (speed and volume) in the middle two hours between the low and high tides. Therefore, a single racing upriver at maximum flow will be significantly faster than one racing upriver at maximum ebb. The difference can be several mph in speed.

http://www.boatma.com/tides/Oct/Boston- ... arbor.html

Leadville- The Charles has been dammed since the early 20th century. The current does vary due to rainfall and how much water they release from the upstream Watertown dam. And boy, that pesky wind can be annoying.

Cheers,

Neil

[leadville]

lights v heavies
in the Charles, the results are also affected by tides. something rangerboy isn't aware of as he's landlocked. the tides have a dramatic effect on times, as they reverse, or double, the current in the river.

The tide at Boston light varies by 7 feet or more, and using the rule of twelves, reaches maximum flow (speed and volume) in the middle two hours between the low and high tides. Therefore, a single racing upriver at maximum flow will be significantly faster than one racing upriver at maximum ebb. The difference can be several mph in speed.

http://www.boatma.com/tides/Oct/Boston- ... arbor.html

Leadville- The Charles has been dammed since the early 20th century. The current does vary due to rainfall and how much water they release from the upstream Watertown dam. And boy, that pesky wind can be annoying.
Cheers,
Neil

Neil
Thanks for the correction. You are right.

[Byron Drachman]

Sept 8, 2004: Just finally fixed. The other stroke was a mess.

Nov 8, 2005: Technique is now fixed.

Fri Oct 20, 2006: Last year I was still struggling with technique. Now my technique is fixed.

Dec 8, 2006: Stroke is all fixed.

Feb 13, 2007: Technique is now fixed, so I can sharpen hard.

February 3, 2008: My technique is certainly fixed.

May 17, 2008: Stroke is now perfect.

January 12, 2009: My stroke now has the same power and versatility as the strokes of the great Danish lightweights.

April 27, 2009:Massive improvement from last year--snip--I now know how to row.

August 22, 2008: Now, I am not only rowing well. I am rowing _perfectly_.

July 30, 2010: Many thanks to Roland for noticing that I have been "dumping the finish." While I have been up here in Door County, I've been working on this, both OTW and off--snip--And so there it is! I am now rowing well!

[aharmer]

Okay, last time you ignored my request and threw it back on me. Your specialty. Are you willing to commit in writing to your Sept. 1st 2k trial? Are you willing to commit to posting a 2k screenshot on Sept 1st with HR data, even if it does not show 6:28?

Sounds like a great family reunion. Bet the family enjoys watching you type on the computer all day and night. LOL!!!!!!!

[Rockin Roland]

My goals are not exclusively OTW.

My first goal is 6:16 at 60 OTErg.


ranger

..........1:34............1:34..........1:34............1:34......

That's all you have to think about Rich.
Write those numbers down and stick them somewhere where you can see them all the time.
Don't get distracted by all the dribble from the other posters on this thread.

You've got to stay focused Rich and just think .......1:34

When you look at that monitor Rich...... all you want to see is......1:34

Yes that's right Rich..... 1:34.... for just over six and a quarter minutes.... is all you have to do.

Come on Rich....... you can do it.

[ranger]

Many thanks to Roland for noticing that I have been "dumping the finish."

Why listen to Roland? As you have stated over and over and over and over. You already have the best coach. Now time for some stupid twisted answer

Just "listening" is tricky, when it comes to doing something complex, don't you think?

Sure, it can help.

But not much, unless you can do what is being suggested (while keeping everything else in place, too).

No other 60s lwts pull much better than 10 SPI, more likely, 9.

So they must _really_ be turning a deaf ear to these things, if I am now pulling 13 SPI.

Or perhaps they are listening _very_ closely, but are having a much harder time doing what they hear they should.

The body is an unruly beast.

It has its own schedules of learning that are more associated with doing than hearing.

ranger