Ranger's training thread

[hjs]

Let's say you do erg a 6:16... (perish the thought)(http://www.spaceheatersinhell.com)

Didn't Stan Vegar erg a 6:16 2k.... and what was his time at the HOCR ?

San Diego Rowing Club (Stan Vegar) 20:45.701 bow#42 +00:20.000 9BR(2) (penalty)
21:05.701 10.64% behind winner

Stan weighs 50 lbs. more than we do.

OTW, that's worth 1:37 over 5K.

So, his 21:05, if he weighed 165 lbs., would be 19:28.

I'd be happy with that.

2:01 pace?

That would beat Dietz by a minute, and would beat you, too.

ranger

I found this in 10 seconds.....

As to what drives the 6-foot-3, 206-pound Vegar, still chiseled like the statue, with 6 percent body fat, he harkens back to his days as a decathlete at the University of Washington. So not 50 pounds.
40 at best and you ranger never row at 75 kg, you sometimes weigh in at weight, but always erg havier.


http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/h ... delat.html

[mikvan52]

Henry:
Sticking to something that Rich, our Chiton of Eden Rock, might even understand:
(from the article you cited)
"Vegar set an age group world record last month on the rowing machine. Simulating a 1,000-meter piece on the ergometer, he required 2 minutes, 58.2 seconds."

Perhaps a 2:58.2 for Rich is in "I think I will" territory... on the road to the goal of his fanciful geriatric lifetime: 6:16.


http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarch ... poemId=127
http://www.poetryarchive.org/poetryarch ... poemId=125


http://wamuseum.com.au/dampier/explore_ ... hitons.asp

To Jon Bone (Nav'Haz') who has since eclipsed Vegar's 1k erg record:

(1000 2:54.1 52 Jonathan Bone H M USA 2008 PM3/PM4 verification code)

I have to take back that part about Stan's not training enough... Those are long training rows detailed in the '06 newapaper archive. I hope to see him do well at the HOCR. I don't know if '07 was his first time out (?).... steering and bridges may have been an issue, judging from the the 2 penalties he was assessed.
I wonder how our Lunatic Boy practices steering during racing in his garage in Ann Arbor?

[mikvan52]

RIch:
Want to see a dramatic example of comparisons between Lwt & Hwt times OTW?
Go to:
http://www.worldrowing.com/index.php?pageid=91
These are the U23 WC results from a week ago.

Then use the pull down menu "Select Class"
compare any and all boat classes an look at the winning times in the A finals.
ask yourself: "Are there any examples of lwts being better than the hwts.....?"

"Zounds!"

[ranger]

Mike--

An ultimate goal for both of us, I think, might be a top-end UT1 pace OTErg of 1:43 @ 29 spm (11 SPI, 10 MPS) and OTW of 1:55 @ 29 spm (8 SPI).

These paces are separated by the ideal difference between erg times and OTW times of 12 seconds per 500m, both absolutely and at the same rate.

On the erg, 1:43 is top-end UTI for a 6:12 2K.

I was doing some 1:55 @ 29 spm OTW yesterday in my Fluid.

I have been doing lots of 1:43 @ 29 spm on the erg for almost a year now.

ranger

[ranger]

RIch:
Want to see a dramatic example of comparisons between Lwt & Hwt times OTW?
Go to:
http://www.worldrowing.com/index.php?pageid=91
These are the U23 WC results from a week ago.

Then use the pull down menu "Select Class"
compare any and all boat classes an look at the winning times in the A finals.
ask yourself: "Are there any examples of lwts being better than the hwts.....?"

"Zounds!"

The course record at the Head of the Charles is held by a lightweight.

ranger

[ranger]

As to what drives the 6-foot-3, 206-pound Vegar, still chiseled like the statue, with 6 percent body fat, he harkens back to his days as a decathlete at the University of Washington. So not 50 pounds.

O.K.

Compared to Mike's 158 lbs., 48 pounds.

That's 40 kgs.

At 2.5 seconds per kg., that's 100 seconds of punishment for weight over 5K.

ranger

[PaulH]

Mike--

An ultimate goal for both of us, I think, might be a top-end UT1 pace OTErg of 1:43 @ 29 spm (11 SPI, 10 MPS) and OTW of 1:55 @ 29 spm (8 SPI).

As far as I know your ultimate goal is a 6:16 2k OTE, and Mike's is to win HOCR. I'm sure you can have other goals, but the thing about ultimate goals is that they're, well, ultimate.

[hjs]

As to what drives the 6-foot-3, 206-pound Vegar, still chiseled like the statue, with 6 percent body fat, he harkens back to his days as a decathlete at the University of Washington. So not 50 pounds.

O.K.

Compared to Mike's 158 lbs., 48 pounds.

That's 40 kgs.

At 2.5 seconds per kg., that's 100 seconds of punishment for weight over 5K.

ranger

You said we, now you say Mike, what will be next

Stan weighs 50 lbs. more than we do.

OTW, that's worth 1:37 over 5K.

So, his 21:05, if he weighed 165 lbs., would be 19:28.


ranger

Mike is a true lightweight, you are not, most of the year you are 80/85 kg, and almost never sub 75, at best a few weeks a year.

[mikvan52]

RIch:
Want to see a dramatic example of comparisons between Lwt & Hwt times OTW?
Go to:
http://www.worldrowing.com/index.php?pageid=91
These are the U23 WC results from a week ago.

Then use the pull down menu "Select Class"
compare any and all boat classes an look at the winning times in the A finals.
ask yourself: "Are there any examples of lwts being better than the hwts.....?"

"Zounds!"

The course record at the Head of the Charles is held by a lightweight.

ranger

Conditions vary at different times of day
In order for there to be any true record in rowing, boats have to leave the start line simultaneously...

.. Anyway... what about John Bigelow's record? I thought that was the fastest?

(consulting the archive)

From wikipedia:
HOCR
Course Records
Club Singles Men: Nat Keohane 18:17.14 (1997) Women: Josee Paquette 20:36.59 (1997)
Club Fours Men: Charles River Rowing Association 16:33.88 (2002) Women: Saugatuck Rowing Association 18:42.95 (1997)
Club Eights Men: Onota Lake Rowing Association 14:56.49 (1997) Women: Univ. of Tennessee 16:49.911 (2005)
Youth Doubles Men: Course Record: B. McEwan/ N. Kelly 17:46.309 Women: L. Sisler/ L. Cowal 19:51:957 (2006)
Youth Fours Men: US Naval Academy 16:23.9 (1994) Women: Community Rowing 17:19.960 (2001)
Youth Eights Men: Harvard University 14:58.6 (1992) Women: St. Catharines Rowing Club 17:02.22 (1997)
Master Singles Men: Robert Spousta 18:16.9 (1984) Women: Cynthia Matthes 19:55.24 (1997)
Master Doubles Men: M. Smith/ D. Gorriaran 17:13.68 (2003) Women: T. Zarzeczny-Bell/ S. Remmler 19:00.316 (2007)
Master Fours Men: Belfast Rowing Club 17:03.38 (1997) Women: Portland Boat Club 18:54.35 (1995)
Master Eights Men: Leander Boat Club, Canada 15:16.13 (2001) Women: Long Beach RA 17:14.17 (2001)
Grand Master Singles Men: Lawrence Klecatsky 18:54.3 (1992) Women: Judy Geer 21:30.930 (2007)
Senior Master Singles Men: Gregory Benning 18:19.758 (2007) Women: Margarita Jekabsons (now Zezza) 20:18.04 (2003)
Senior-Master Doubles Men: R. Haberl/ R. Slocum 18:06.910 (2007) Women: J. Linse/ S. Kinne 19:53.749 (2007)
Senior-Master Fours Men: Toronto Sculling Club 17:25.52 (2003) Women: Watercat Rowing Club 19:48.392 (2007)
Senior-Master Eights Team Attager 15:43.490 (2007) Women: 1980 Rowing Club 18:00.427 (2007)
Veteran Singles Men: C. Collins 19:24.329 (adjusted) (2001) Women: Brook Stevens 23:25.66 (adjusted) (2007) * probable raw time 20:28.329
Senior Veteran Singles Men: R. Kendall 20:31.75 (adjusted) (2001) Women: L. Rindlaub (70 +) 25:34.773 (adjusted) (2007)
Collegiate Fours Men: Michigan Rowing Association 17:10.678 (2007) Women: Marquette University 19:19.167 (2007)
Collegiate Eights Men: Trinity College 14:58.705 (2007) Women: Queen's University, Canada 16:47.321 (2003)
Lightweight Singles Men: Paul Fuchs 17:24.8 (1984) Women: Teresa Zarzeczny 19:00.58 (1992)
Lightweight Fours Men: New York Athletic Club 15:49.63 (2003) Women: Baltimore Rowing Club 18:26.97 (1992)
Lightweight Eights Men: Rowing Canada 14:21.01 (1997) Women: Argonaut RC 16:14.87 (1992)
Championship Singles Men: John Biglow 17:29.8 (1982) Women: Virginia Gilder 18:45.6 (1982)
Championship Doubles Men: Boston Rowing Center 16:01.2 (1992) Women: A. De Zwager/J. Rumball 17:51.46 (2003)
Championship Fours Men: Princeton Training Center 15:34.4 (1997) Women: London Training Center 17:27.35 (2003)
Championship Eights Men: USRowing 13:58.99 (1997) Women: USRowing 15:26.572 (2007)

.... a 17:24 in a lwt race in 1984 is hardly the same event as the 17:29 in 1982!
Do you think that the wind or river flow condition could make up for 5 seconds over 3 miles?
hmmm.....
The course start and finish could have been different on those days... the buoy lines could have been set differently on the long HOCR turns... (Did they even have buoy lines in 1982??)

Find us lwt vs hwt on the same day somewhere, please... and even that would be suspect.
Why in LAST WEEKEND's racing was no lwt time faster than a hwts? Why, in a table off all-time elite rowing is no lwt time faster than a hwts time? P.H.Y.S.I.C.S.!!!!, My Friend...

[mikvan52]

On issues of weight, there's no surpassing ranger!

Take a load off ranger, take a load for free

January 23rd, 2010, 2:53 pm
The weight I am losing is fat.

Fat is irrelevant to erging.

It doesn't make you slower or faster.

But it is much healthier to be lean rather than fat.



December 28th, 2009, 2:39 pm

Given my stroking power now, if I can pull 36 spm for 2K, I'll row 6:16.

Weight is irrelevant to that.



November 25th, 2009, 3:33 am

I now have no problem making weight, if I control my eating.

I only have 144 lbs. of non-fat body mass.

I make weight when I am 14% body fat.

There are several things to juggle in order to row well.

It is easier for me to control my weight, if my rowing is in order, as it was in 2003 and as it is now.

In between, I was working on my rowing, not my weight.

So it was difficult to race as a lightweight.

No longer.

I have now been at weight since the middle of September.

coming up again in the fall 0f 2010?
binge eating vs over exercising

(October 3rd, 2009, 10:17 am) on the thread What Eating Have You Done today

This morning: Hour erg, 5-hour bike (100 miles?)

I ate _way_ too much this last week to lose any more weight, but perhaps that was good, given the rapid weight loss just before that.

Yesterday some great eats: Key lime pie, 3 brats, a huge bowl of homemade guacamole and corn chips, fresh asparagus with lemon butter, homemade bread and butter, lots of red wine, fistfulls of chocolate bars, yogurt with raspberry jam and brown sugar, three eggs, several bowls of homemade leek soup with mushrooms, etc. etc.

(snip)
Weight this morning: 165.6 lbs.

Happy with that.

ranger

Is this the proverbial Breakfast of Champions of which we've heard so much?
with 6 hours of training in a day?
Obsessive compulsion is not always equal to intelligent training.... in my book... just so you can end up with a 2k erg time in the 6:40's....
(one man's opinion... I know you feel-think-expect-predict otherwise, Rich)

[KevJGK]

I have no problem making weight, if I control my eating.

No shit, Sherlock.

[ranger]

Mike--

An ultimate goal for both of us, I think, might be a top-end UT1 pace OTErg of 1:43 @ 29 spm (11 SPI, 10 MPS) and OTW of 1:55 @ 29 spm (8 SPI).

These paces are separated by the ideal difference between erg times and OTW times of 12 seconds per 500m, both absolutely and at the same rate.

On the erg, 1:43 is top-end UTI for a 6:12 2K.

I was doing some 1:55 @ 29 spm OTW yesterday in my Fluid.

I have been doing lots of 1:43 @ 29 spm on the erg for almost a year now.

ranger

Given my rowing this morning, this needs a revision.

Many thanks to Roland for noticing that I have been "dumping the finish."

While I have been up here in Door County, I've been working on this, both OTW and off, and have finally got the hang of a fuller finish, both at the footplate (maintaining better contact on the footplate with the front of my foot and my toes, pushing the boat away from me) and with my arms, pulling them through more completely with flat forearms.

On the erg, the difference this morning was 1 SPI.

Instead of pulling 12 SPI (1:48 @ 24 spm), I was pulling 13 SPI (1:44 @ 24 spm)--with similar effort.

And so there it is!

I am now rowing well!

As I raised the rate, I maintained this stroking power.

1:43 @ 25 spm

1:42 @ 26 spm

1:41 @ 27 spm

etc.

Wow.

Perfect rowing for a lightweight of any age.

13 SPI

Now, all I have to do is keep doing it.

120 df.

OTW technique

Moderate rates (22-27 spm)

UT1 heartrates (70-85% HRR)

If I learn to row well OTW, this means that I should be able to get to 1:56 @ 24 spm, 12 seconds per 500m off of this erg time (1:44 @ 24 spm).

In the Wolverine Plan, 13 SPI is Level 4 rowing for a 6:24 2K.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Mike--

An ultimate goal for both of us, I think, might be (snip)(enter random erg-blather)

Given my rowing this morning, this needs a revision.

(snip)
On the erg, the difference this morning was 1 SPI.

(snip)

And so there it is!


If I learn to row well OTW, this means .....(snip)

.... "And so there it is!"

Sitting on an erg will teach you what exactly about sculling on the water ?
Ever practice the OTW release on an erg? What feedback do you get from the motion of the chain as it relates to the movement of the erg machine across the floor as your weight shifts as it moves along the rail beneath your seat?

(My point is that you don't feel a thing on the erg and don't really get any substantial feedback as to boat-check)
Sure you can train yourself to generate watts but you need to have what it takes to avoid losing a considerable percentage of these watts due to technique. This can only be quantified on the water...not on an erg.

The ranger choice is to go to the erg each day, tire himself out, and then do a less than optimum supplemental workout on the water. IMO: This doesn't work if an athlete wishes to excel OTW.

[ranger]

Sure you can train yourself to generate watts but you need to have what it takes to avoid losing a considerable percentage of these watts due to technique. This can only be quantified on the water...not on an erg.

On the erg, the improvement in my finishes this morning was exactly technical.

I learned how to avoid "dumping my finishes.""

Then I go out on the water and do the same.

The improvement is exactly "quantified on the water," as it is on the erg.

The two are not at all incompatible.

In fact, a good finish OTW, I suspect, is even more important to boat speed that it is to power per stroke on the erg.

ranger

[ranger]

Sure you can train yourself to generate watts but you need to have what it takes to avoid losing a considerable percentage of these watts due to technique. This can only be quantified on the water...not on an erg.

On the erg, the improvement in my finishes this morning was exactly technical.

I learned how to avoid "dumping my finishes.""

Then I go out on the water and do the same.

The improvement is exactly "quantified on the water," as it is on the erg.

The two are not at all incompatible.

In fact, a good finish OTW, I suspect, is even more important to boat speed that it is to power per stroke on the erg.

ranger