Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

At this age, the challenge I will present OTW to other 60s rowers will be athletic/physical and therefore is measured just as well by the erg as it is by any OTW effort.

It won't have anything to do with OTW technique, although I certainly have to be a clean and competent sculler to deliver this physical challenge.

For lightweights, the big stroke that is demanded OTW in order to give the boat a good run feels like 12 SPI on the erg.

It is a _very_ athletic affair.

But the 60s lwt WR for 1K on the erg is only 3:16.7, about 30 spm, pulling at 12 SPI.

This is exactly what Mike VB does for 1K on the erg, and exactly what he likes to rate for 1K OTW.

The challenge that I will present OTW to other 60s rowers will be in terms of rating up from there and therefore can be measured by the erg or OTW.

Doesn't matter.

Historically, both on the erg and OTW, there has been a huge drop off in what veteran lightweights have been able to do for 1K when they are 60 vis-a-vis what they could do when they were 50.

On the erg, this drop off has been right about the seven seconds per 500m (from 3:03 to 3:17) that I mentioned also appears OTW in the difference between Mike VB's time OTW for 1K at the US Masters Nationals (3:51) and the time of late 40s competitors (3:36).

If they hold their technique steady (at 12 SPI, a good OTW stroke), late 40s and early 50s rowers, it seems, can still rate 37 spm for 1K; but by the time rowers are 60, they can only rate 30 spm.

The question will be what I can do next year for 1K, when I turn 60.

I think I will be able to rate 38 spm, which comes out to 3:02/1:31 on the erg, 3:40/1:50 OTW.

If that turns out to be the case, it will revise the historical standards for 60s rowers, not on the basis of technique, but just on a physical basis.

As an old coot, I will rate up, while other 60s rowers will find that they no longer can.

If you don't use it, you lose it.

ranger

[ranger]

Contrary to what Mike VB thinks, the erg, then, is relevant to what he can do OTW for 1K, too.

At his age, the issue is not technical, how well he rows.

The issue is physical.

If MIke VB wants to do better for 1K OTW, he needs to be able to do better for 1K on the erg.

Pulling 12 SPI, he needs to be able to rate up forr 3-4 minutes, not just a minute and a half (etc.).

30 spm is a _very_ low rate for a 1K.

It is even a low rate for a 2K.

For many, it is even a low rate for a 5K.

ranger

[ranger]

As a 60s, or near 60s, lightweight, if you want to find out whether you still have the physical engines to hold your technique together and rate up for 1K, both OTW and off, you don't have to do 1Ks and other sprinty stuff in your day-to-day rowing, either OTW or off, and you don't even have to row OTW at all.

Just row at 12 SPI on the erg until your HR is steady state at UT2 and note your rate.

End of story.

For instance, for these purposes, I now prefer 1:48 @ 23 spm when my HR is steady state at 145 bpm, 70% HRR.

I suspect that Mike VB prefers 1:59 @ 17 spm.

And that's all she wrote.

The difference is six spm.

When he is doing 1:48 @ 23 spm, Mike VB is at AT (or even above).

I suspect that he can't do 5K, 1:48 @ 23 spm.

5K is done at AT.

For Mike VB, UT2/70% HRR is 123 bpm.

ranger

[ranger]

Back in 2003, rowing at max drag, rushing the slide, diving at the catch, short-sliding, yanking the chain with my back and arms, and dragging my legs behind, I did 60min, 1:48 @ 28 spm, with a HR flat at 172 bpm, my anaerobic threshold.

That is, back then, because of my ineffective (10 SPI) and inefficient (28 spm) technique, 1:48 was top-end UT1.

Now, rowing well at low drag (123 df.), using the full slide and leading with my legs, I do 1:48 at 23 spm at top-end UT2, even though I am seven years older.

By working exclusively on technique for seven years, I have improved an entire training band, increasing my stroking power 2 SPI at the same rate and heart rate.

At 23 spm, 2 SPI is worth 46 watts, or five seconds per 500m.

Training bands are separated by five seconds per 500m.

1:48 is UT2 for a 6:12 2K.

Back in 2003, in a 2K, my most frequent score was 6:32, five seconds per 500m from 6:12.

In the seven years from 53 years old to 60 years old, the normal expectation is that I would have slowed down three seconds per 500m, 1.7 seconds a year over 2K, or 11.9 seconds in all.

So, the overall improvement in my rowing, the competitive advantage that I have achieved, from working on technique rather than repeatedly preparing to race (and therefore racing my training) over the last seven years is eight seconds per 500m.



That's a lot.

Caveat lector.

Beware the advice given by the majority of folks on this forum about how to improve your rowing.

The advice is not constructive.

It's destructive.

They know not what they do.

ranger

[mikvan52]

When I come down a courage for 1K, I will rate 38 spm, as I do on the erg, not 30 spm.

ranger

So you don't have any courage?

This statement indicates you will never come down a (course (?)) in a headwind.
So, you'll refuse to scull in headwinds...
Odd.

[mikvan52]

Contrary to what Mike VB thinks, the erg, then, is relevant to what he can do OTW for 1K, too.

At his age, the issue is not technical, how well he rows.

The issue is physical.

If MIke VB wants to do better for 1K OTW, he needs to be able to do better for 1K on the erg.

The issue is physical.... you have to show up to win.

Crash B
2007= MvB (returns)..ranger = no show
2008 = MvB Gold......ranger = no show
2009 = MvB Bronze...ranger = no show
2010 = MvB Gold.....ranger = no show (Cureton unable to qualify for free trip in time, MvB did (!))

Let me share something with you:
At the level I train on the water and due to my age, I have to pay attention to rest just as much as the speeds I can attain be it OTW or OTErg...

Keep the smoke blowin', good buddy!
Can't wait to see you scull a single in the high 30's into a headwind. Don't forget to get video of yourself practicing that!


Did you notice win the video of the Diamond Sculls... Mahe was two beats slower than Karonnen... 28 vs..30?
Did you even bother to look at the whole thing?

Did you watch the video of the HOCR when I posted it this spring? In the 60's group: Dietz was at a 28 and beat Meyer at a 32.... IOW: Boat speed does not correspond to rate.... Go figure!
(this vid' is no longer online)... too bad

[ranger]

Mike--

Do 5K @ 12 SPI on the erg, keeping your HR steady at 123 bpm.

What do you rate?

These are the rates and paces at 12 SPI (rounded off to the nearest half second):

2:05 @ 15 spm
2:02 @ 16 spm
2:00 @ 17 spm
1:58 @ 18 spm
1:56 @ 19 spm
1:54 @ 20 spm
1:52 @ 21 spm
1:50 @ 22 spm
1:48 @ 23 spm
1:46.5 @ 24 spm
1:45 @ 25 spm

ranger

[ranger]

The issue is physical.... you have to show up to win.

Depends on whether your goals are short-term or long-term.

Since I already had three WR rows in 2003 pursuing short-term goals, my goals became long-term.

If your goals are long-term, you don't have to show up to win.

You have to train well.

Racing is irrelevant until you have reached your goal.

In fact, if your goals are long-term, racing is just a destructive, if not disastrous, distraction.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Historically, both on the erg and OTW, there has been a huge drop off in what veteran lightweights have been able to do for 1K when they are 60 vis-a-vis what they could do when they were 50.

On the erg, this drop off has been right about the seven seconds per 500m (from 3:03 to 3:17) that I mentioned also appears OTW in the difference between Mike VB's time OTW for 1K at the US Masters Nationals (3:51) and the time of late 40s competitors (3:36).

You're "cherry picking" here again.
The day before I rowed 3:51 I was much slower down the course and won a different boat class with even more competitors...
How does that make your number theory look? Pretty silly.

Fact is, you ignore race conditions.
Two weeks before, I raced in yet a third set of conditions and was close to 3:45 for 1k (no current)

Rich.. The solution to your line of inquiry is not rate.. Trust the rest of the world on this

On the erg:
1 Wind doesn't matter
2 Balance doesn't matter
3 Drag caused by body weight is not a factor (as it affects the amount of wetted surface on a boat's hull)
Gotta go scull now. Enjoy your erging.
While you're sitting there in your garage, think of how you are emulating the drag of a hull moving through water....
Do you feel it?..... How about now??... Nothing yet???......
.
That's because you can't.
Herein lies the failure of the erg as it applies to OTW excellence.

I do believe in the erg.... It's an off-season conditioning tool for me. It's a great exercise machine, one of the best.
For you.... it's your main focus...your "unfinished business".... and it's your undoing for your ambitions OTW.
.
Different strokes!


Look! another ranger words-0-wisdom gem:
"If your goals are long-term, you don't have to show up to win."
Rich:
For the water.... this so dead wrong as to be unworthy of comment.
You are to be forgiven because you have not raced yet. How would you know?...
Do heed what all OTW racers say... It will help you.

[ranger]

While you're sitting there in your garage, think of how you are emulating the drag of a hull moving through water....
Do you feel it?..... How about now??... Nothing yet???......
.
That's because you can't.
Herein lies the failure of the erg as it applies to OTW excellence.

Sure, _technical_ excellence.

But rowing OTW is not all technique.

The two most important elements of boat speed are physical capacity and training, especially for older rowers.

Technique is a distant third.

No need to feel the hull going through the water when I am rowing on the erg.

There are lots of other things to work on when erging.

And I don't at all miss working on the feel of the hull going through the water.

After I erg, I row OTW for about an equal amount of time.

I get the best of both worlds.

ranger

[ranger]

38 spm is a nice cadence.

I wonder whether I can do it for 2K, rowing well at low drag, rather than just 1K?

Rhythmically, I do the gestures in the rowing stroke in 16 pulses for each stroke cycle, organized dynamically/metrically into 4-beat measures at all levels of beating.

At 38 spm, that's 608 pulses a minute, or a pulse right about every .1 second.

10.125 pulses a second.

Xeno did right around 38 spm for 2K in his Olympic gold row.

I probably did close to 38 spm in my three WR 2Ks on the erg in 2003, albeit rowing poorly at high drag and 10 SPI rather than rowing well at low drag and 12 SPI.

ranger

[jliddil]

Any effectively generated theory capable of expressing elementary arithmetic cannot be both consistent and complete. In particular, for any consistent, effectively generated formal theory that proves certain basic arithmetic truths, there is an arithmetical statement that is true, but not provable in the theory.

For any formal effectively generated theory T including basic arithmetical truths and also certain truths about formal provability, T includes a statement of its own consistency if and only if T is inconsistent.

Begin, then, with the assumption that there is a plurality of large things, say (A, B, C). By one-over-many, there is a form of largeness (say, L1) by virtue of partaking of which A, B, and C are large. By self-predication, L1 is large.
******

* One-over-many: For any plurality of F things, there is a form of F-ness by virtue of partaking of which each member of that plurality is F.
* Self-predication: Every form of F-ness is itself F.
* Non-self-partaking: No form partakes of itself.
* Uniqueness: For any property F, there is exactly one form of F-ness.
* Purity: No form can have contrary properties.
* One/many: The property of being one and the property of being many are contraries.
* Oneness: Every form is one.

[ranger]

It's your undoing for your ambitions OTW

Not sure where this comes from.

I have _already_ surpassed my ambitions OTW.

When I started rowing OTW seven years ago, I never thought I would be as fast OTW as I am already.

Dang, my new boat is fast!

ranger

[ranger]

Different strokes!

No, not necessarily.

Not even preferably.

On the erg, the fastest stroke is a good OTW stroke, if you can do one.

ranger

[PaulH]

I will rate 38 spm, as I do on the erg

Liar