Ranger's training thread

[ranger]

I did scull for 20k in my single.

Nice.

That's what I am trying to get to.

Only did 12K OTW today (two loops down to Barton Dam).

I need to add another loop or two.

Then again, I also did 15K on the erg before going out OTW.

ranger

[ranger]

From my breathing pattern I could tell I did not reach AT...

Of course not.

500s at 5K pace is a low to middlin' UT1/Level 3 workout.

In the WP, even 10 x 1500m (one minute rest) at 5K is UT1/Level 3.

ranger

[ThatMoos3Guy]

These old scullers, who have tried to rely of technique to compensate for their massive loss in physical capacity and weak training habits, have been vulnerable all along.

Even OTW, you can't win a rowing race on technique alone.

Power is nice, but it doesn't make up for sloppy rowing. My high school coach is now in his 50s, and while he still trains he is obviously not in the kind of shape he used to be in. We probably pull a similar erg time, and I might even be faster over 500m. However, I would never be able to touch him in a seat race, why? Because he has been rowing for over 35 years. He's gotten gold medals at Head of the Charles the last two years. Guess how he trains for most of the winter? Cross Country skiing; he rarely ergs. I'm sure he wasn't the most fit guy in those races, but he moved the boat better. The reason these coaches/ex-international rowers do well is that they have truly exceptional technique, the kind that can't be learned over a couple years.

Yes, if there are two rowers of equal technical skill, the one with a better engine's going to win. But, if the stronger one has worse technique they probably won't win.

[whp4]

Talk is cheap, old man. Show us what you've got.

The talk here is about training.

Hey, you're the one predicting that you can do more than 70 strokes at that pace, no one else thinks you can!

If the talk here is about training, and not performance, what was this about?

Not sure, but I think I can do this right now, Mike, although I would have to rate 36 spm to do so.

I'll do some 500s and check it out when I get to Door County, WI, and have some clean, open water to row in.

The talk is about how I am getting better.

I'll do lots of racing over the next year.

That will show what I've got.

ranger

Yeah, that yellow belly will show nicely against the blue shell! You won't have done a single OTW race by July 10, 2011.

[Rockin Roland]

Then again, I also did 15K on the erg before going out OTW.

ranger

I use to do that years ago when training for Crash'Bs until I realised that it's not a good thing to do. Unless it's only an easy warm up erg it will fatigue the muscles too much and hinder good form on the water in the boat. Best to keep the sessions seperate if your at all serious about improving your technique in the boat.

[ranger]

Power is nice, but it doesn't make up for sloppy rowing. My high school coach is now in his 50s, and while he still trains he is obviously not in the kind of shape he used to be in. We probably pull a similar erg time, and I might even be faster over 500m. However, I would never be able to touch him in a seat race, why? Because he has been rowing for over 35 years. He's gotten gold medals at Head of the Charles the last two years. Guess how he trains for most of the winter? Cross Country skiing; he rarely ergs. I'm sure he wasn't the most fit guy in those races, but he moved the boat better. The reason these coaches/ex-international rowers do well is that they have truly exceptional technique, the kind that can't be learned over a couple years.

Yes, if there are two rowers of equal technical skill, the one with a better engine's going to win. But, if the stronger one has worse technique they probably won't win.

I am not talking about power.

I am talking about aerobic capacity--rating up.

Wait until your 2K on the erg is 6:10 rating 40 spm rather than 6:54 rating 30 spm.

These two are done with exactly the same power (11 SPI) but very different aerobic capacities.

Then race your coach again OTW.

See what happens.

If you rate 40 spm and he rates 30 spm, the race will be no contest.

Younger rowers are not necessarily stronger than older rowers.

They blow more air.

They have higher maxHRs.

They have their youthful aerobic capacity.

60s rowers such as Mike VB have lost 30% of their youthful aerobic capacity.

That's a lot.

For elite rowers, 30% of 2K watts is as much as 150 watts, 15 seconds per 500m.

In order to win a rowing race, you have to be _hugely_ better technically to overcome this kind of physical deficit.

That's why, by and large, there are no rowers over 40 on National teams, much less rowers who are 60.

Physical capacity and training are--by far--the most important elements of boat speed.

It appears that, due to OTW technique, Mike VB is now only four seconds per 500m better than I am OTW, even though I am just learning to row.

Within a couple of years, I think this difference will shrink to something indistinguishable.

On the other hand, given our very different training and arc of decline with age, I think our physical differences will just continue to grow.

Historically, the best OTW rowers have declined physically at a rate of three seconds per 500m a decade.

My rate of physical decline seems to be one third of that--one second per 500m per decade.

This is too big of a difference to overcome with technique alone.

If I can indeed pull a 6:16 2K on the erg this next year, I will be _eight_ seconds per 500m better than Mike in terms of aerobic capacity.

If we stroke the same for 2K, I will be rating 37 spm.

Mike will be rating 27 spm.

ranger

[ranger]

Then again, I also did 15K on the erg before going out OTW.

ranger

I use to do that years ago when training for Crash'Bs until I realised that it's not a good thing to do. Unless it's only an easy warm up erg it will fatigue the muscles too much and hinder good form on the water in the boat. Best to keep the sessions seperate if your at all serious about improving your technique in the boat.

No, I am not tired OTW after erging.

In fact, problably because of my age, I do much better OTW when I am thoroughly warmed up.

I also take a good break (for breakfast, etc.) between my erging and my rowing OTW.

In fact, if the sun isn't up yet, I take a nap.

Roland, what you "used to do" means what you did when you were in your 30s.

I am 60, almost twice as old.

Wait until you are 60.

You will see what I mean.

Right now, you don't know what you are talking about.

30s rowers have yet to experience much of a physical decline at all.

So, sure, technique is all-important, the variable that determines who wins races.

Not so with 60-year-olds.

A physical decline of 15 seconds per 500m, 10 spm, can't be overcome with good technique.

ranger

[ranger]

2 sets of 5 x (2 min on/ 2 min off) w/performance goals for the "ons" and the "offs". (5' rest between sets)

on = 2:02 or faster
off = 2:30 or faster
I also had to use my best form throughout.

To go under 2:00 avg pace for the "ons" was a nice milestone especially as my rate floated where it wanted to go.

From my breathing pattern I could tell I did not reach AT...

I only share this with you so that the maverick in you will rule out this type of workout as one you'd eventually do.... like the one I shared with you the other day.

Both OTW and OTErg, I will want to do 500s with equal rest like this at 37 spm, not 24 spm.

On the erg, that will be 1:34 @ 37 spm.

OTW, that will be 1:52 @ 37 spm.

And I will want to do 20 rather than 10.

ranger

[ranger]

Wow.

As it turns out, OTW technique aside, given two elite ergers for their age and weight, both hammer winners, there couldn't possibily be a starker contrast between my physiology and other 60s or near-60s lightweights, such as Mike VB's.

As this physiological contrast is measured by the erg, if we hold our technique together, e.g., at 12 SPI, my minimal rate for training, my FM rate, 24 spm (1:46), for my peers in age and weight, is their 2K race rate (1:46).

The difference is 13 seconds per 500m.

A FM is done at 2K + 13.

I am in the midst of some _very_ odd things, if viewed historically, according to the present standards for lightweight 60s indoor rowing.

ranger

[ranger]

BTW, I have corrected the dipping of my hands and and 3/4 sliding when I am on the erg.

Yes, much better.

Getting rid of the towel I usually erg on has been perhaps the greataest help.

I sit lower, relative to my hands, more like I am in a boat.

When I keep my hands up at the catch and lengthen the slide to full, I get about two seconds per 500m more pace.

1:48 @ 24 spm becomes 1:46 @ 24 spm.

It is also easier.

I'll post another video today to illustrate this 1:46 @ 24 spm with proper OTW technique.

At a differential of 18 seconds per 500m between my erging and rowing OTW at the same rate, this 1:46 @ 24 spm (12 SPI) is equivalent to 2:04 @ 24 spm OTW.

When doing 1:46 @ 24 spm (12 SPI) on the erg, my HR runs about 155 bpm, 75% HRR.

FM pace.

Rowing 24 spm OTW feels the same.

I use the same stroke both OTW and off.

ranger

[ranger]

Great stuff OTW now.

Got to 2:02 @ 24 spm today.

That's 8 SPI.

Delighted with this.

That's _waaay_ better than Mike VB's 2:04.4 @ 28.5 spm (6.2 SPI) at Blackfly.

I am really getting the hang of big legs at the catch.

And this helps--a lot:

Dang, my new boat is fast!

ranger

[mikvan52]

Wait until you are 60.

You will see what I mean.

Right now, you don't know what you are talking about.

To Roland and anyone who is reading our drivel here who is interested in improving their rowing:

Herein lies the biggest danger to those looking for good training advice on this forum.
ranger does not know what he's talking about OTW. For the erg: his training is only good for himself. For a host of reasons, no one follows what ranger does and never will.

Rich: There will be no sub 6:30 erg 2k in your future. No fault of yours:(The aging human body does not have the physical capability)..... AND: There will be no major head race victory, ever, unless you change in ways so fundamental that seem to be well beyond your psychological capability.

Rest assured that those who spend there time on this thread come here for entertainment (your "hot dogs w/mustard").

When's your first reported 1k OTW piece going to show up here?
~~~ Man your mouth is fast! ~~~

Say what you want, I doubt you will ever face anyone at an OTW race, ever.
You will rest in obscurity hiding behind the cloak that the internet provides for you delusions.

You say "next year" and "next fall" and such. That's the end of it... These are things you say and have said. It doesn't go any further than the 'spoken' word. All hail, the internet!

Go ahead: Rate it up!. I mean reported pieces... not posts!


"some" "sequence" to be "happy about"........
"Dang"
Perhaps you:

Got to 2:02

a number without a duration.
Get back to us when it's for 5k.... with or w/o breaks.... 20-21 minutes of strokes all done at sub 2:03 pace.
I did that yesterday. Actually, it was sub 2:00....

What's the calibration factor on your SpeedCoach again?

[ranger]

Rich: There will be no sub 6:30 erg 2k in your future.

True.

I am not interested in a sub-6:30 2K on the erg.

Been there, done that.

Five times.

This next year, when I am fully trained up for it and am rowing well at low drag, I am going to pull sub-6:20.

ranger

[ranger]

For a host of reasons, no one follows what ranger does and never will.

No, just the opposite.

When I am done with things, _everyone_ will do what I have done.

Only you old "clubby" scullers will still do the same old, same old.

But it will no longer be good enough to win.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Any time less than 6:20 is less than 6:30

What's the calibration factor on your SpeedCoach?