Ranger's training thread

[Citroen]

I live in the UK therefore a UK size 10

You're on for 6:16. You have the same size feet (US 9) as our hero.

[mikvan52]

Give it a whirl and see what you come up with.

Nah.

No reason for me to do your OTW workouts.

We are at completely different places in our OTW training.

I suspect that it will be a couple of years before I do the kind of thing you are doing OTW.

I am still just learning to row.

ranger

Why not Rich, you've been saying that you're already going faster than Mike OTW, and quicker than Jim Dietz and co.

You couldn't have been caught in a lie, could you?

Oh no, not AGAIN!

Hey ausrwr!
I was wondering about that too.. But not for more than a few moments....

The real ranger problem lies in his statement
"But I will pull a 6:16 2K at 60"

"pulling"... hmmm
What about the legs?
Indeed, ranger does "pull" and that works fine for the erg... but not the boat.

TSO's most recent video confirms this... He's a puller alright!
...and... As others have pointed out, he is incapable of holding his torso in "the bow" to get adequate run to a boat.

I can wait to see "some" OTW strokes.

s^2d^2 !!

ranger cannot, and may never, show 70 strokes of OTW at 1:51 pace. If and when he does he can claim to be as fast as me... even for such a short distance.

I wonder what his calibration factor is on his SpeedCoach .... The Fluid hull requires that one adjusts the factory setting in order for readings to be accurate.
(Rich and I have the same hull shape)

[Bob S.]

(Rich and I have the same hull shape)

Oh? Have you lost some inches of height and gained them in circumference?

Couldn't resist that one.

B.S.

[ranger]

Indeed, ranger does "pull" and that works fine for the erg... but not the boat.

TSO's most recent video confirms this... He's a puller alright!
...and... As others have pointed out, he is incapable of holding his torso in "the bow" to get adequate run to a boat.

I keep working on getting more water at the catch in my 1x.

I am certainly using my legs, though, and my boat has plenty of run.

Today, I got to 2:00 @ 26 spm on one sequence; 2:01 @ 26 spm on another; and 2:02 at 26 spm on another.

So, I am starting to take some pretty good strokes.

1:58 @ 26 spm (8.2 SPI) is a theoretical limit for me.

Nice 12K OTW today, after erging.

I would like to push that up to 20K.

BTW, for me, 26 spm is just middlin' UT1, on both the erg and OTW.

Very comfortable, everyday rowing.

If you hold your technique together (e.g., at 7.7 SPI OTW), 26 spm for you is TR, 2K race pace.

I like to train from day to day in and around 26 spm.

As you illustrate in your 19-minute pieces, you like to train at 20 spm.

No wonder.

For you, 20 spm, not 26 spm, is middlin' UT1.

Middlin' UT1 is comfortable, everyday rowing.

For me, middlin' UT1 is a HR of 160 bpm.

For you, it's a HR of 135 bpm.

80% HRR

It would be interesting to know what your HR is doing when you are rowing 2:10 @ 20 spm (8 SPI) OTW.

For you, that's comparable to 1:56 @ 20 spm (11.2 SPI) on the erg.

Wouldn't it be nice if you could hold that technique steady and rate 34 spm for 2K on the erg?

If you did this, you would pull 6:28.6, 20 seconds better than you do now.

Unfortunately, you can't.

Now, on the erg, when you raise the rate to 34 spm to do a 2K, you lower your SPI to 9.5.

You throw your technique out the window.

Your poor efficiency makes it so that you can't use your full effectiveness.

My goal on the erg for this next year is a 2K, 12 SPI @ 35 spm (6:16).

In terms of efficiency, this goal is not much stiffer than yours--35 spm.

But the effectiveness I am aiming for (12 SPI) is well beyond what any 60s lwt has been able to do so far.

If you rowed a 2K on the erg at 12 SPI, maintaining your technique, you would rate 27 spm.

And the cat would be out of the bag.

You can row _very_ effectively, if you choose to.

But if you do, you can't rate up.

Your poor efficiency makes it so that you can't use your full effectiveness.

ranger

[ranger]

ranger cannot, and may never, show 70 strokes of OTW at 1:51 pace. If and when he does he can claim to be as fast as me... even for such a short distance.

Not sure, but I think I can do this right now, Mike, although I would have to rate 36 spm to do so.

I'll do some 500s and check it out when I get to Door County, WI, and have some clean, open water to row in.

Up there, Europe Lake is 1.5K long, free of weeds and obstacles, and deserted early in the morning when I row.

http://www.lake-link.com/maps/lake.cfm? ... w=Area_Map

I wouldn't want to do a lot of sprinting in the Huron River above Barton Dam, where I have been rowing from day to day.

Whatever the outcome, the issue, though, is not what happens for these 70 strokes, but what might happen for the 70 strokes after that.

My prediction is this:

You would die.

I would raise the rate to 38-40 spm and finish strong.

ranger

[whp4]

ranger cannot, and may never, show 70 strokes of OTW at 1:51 pace. If and when he does he can claim to be as fast as me... even for such a short distance.

Not sure, but I think I can do this right now, Mike, although I would have to rate 36 spm to do so.

I'll do some 500s and check it out when I get to Door County, WI, and have some clean, open water to row in.

Up there, Europe Lake is 1.5K long, free of weeds and obstacles, and deserted early in the morning when I row.

http://www.lake-link.com/maps/lake.cfm? ... w=Area_Map

I wouldn't want to do a lot of sprinting in the Huron River above Barton Dam, where I have been rowing from day to day.

Whatever the outcome, the issue, though, is not what happens for these 70 strokes, but what might happen for the 70 strokes after that.

My prediction is this:

You would die.

I would raise the rate to 38-40 spm and finish strong.

ranger

Talk is cheap, old man. Show us what you've got.

[ranger]

Talk is cheap, old man. Show us what you've got.

The talk here is about training.

Training isn't a performance.

It is an opportunity to get better.

The talk is about how I am getting better.

I'll do lots of racing over the next year.

That will show what I've got.

ranger

[ranger]

At 7 SPI, to go 1:51 OTW, I just need to raise the rate to 37 spm.

With an 18 seconds per 500m gap between my erg times and my OTW times, a 1:51 500m OTW is comparable to a 1:33 500m on the erg, which I would also do at 37 spm (11.7 SPI).

No problem.

For next year, my target for 8 x 500m on the erg is 1:31.

My pb is 1:33.5.

My target for 500m on the erg is 1:23.

At a gap of 18 seconds per 500m between my erg times and OTW times, that's comparable to 1:41 OTW.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

When I am rowing as effectively OTW as you, that 1:51 @ 37 spm (7 SPI) OTW will become 1:47 @ 37 spm (7.7 SPI), where my erg times and OTW times will be separated by 14 seconds per 500m.

A theoretical limit for me is 1:45 @ 37 spm (8.1 SPI), where my erg times and OTW times are separated by 12 seconds per 500m.

In a couple of years, I think I will row as effectively OTW as you.

I have already had a glimpse of that rowing--this morning!

Not sure whether I will ever get to my theoretical limit.

ranger

[ranger]

BTW, working with my OTW stroke for an hour or two on the erg before I go out OTW each morning is helping enormously with my stroke OTW--and vice versa.

The two most important elements of boat speed are physical capacity and training.

But these technical things are also important.

Good equipment and rigging also help.

Dang, my new boat is fast!

"Windhover"



ranger

[ranger]

In the Veterans race at the Head of the Charles, accomplished lifelong scullers such as Dietz, Mike VB, and Spousta (all rowing coaches now!) have been able to dominate, despite their steep physical decline and weak training habits--but only accidentally.

For whatever reason, to this point, most accomplished veteran ergers with high physical capacities and strong training habits have tended to be gym rats, bikers, skiers, weight lifters, rugby players, and other sorts of fitness buffs, who didn't take the time to learn to row well OTW, or in most cases, didn't even row OTW at all.

None of this changes the facts.

The most important elements of boat speed are physical capacity and training.

These old scullers, who have tried to rely of technique to compensate for their massive loss in physical capacity and weak training habits, have been vulnerable all along.

Even OTW, you can't win a rowing race on technique alone.

Rowing is intensely physical.

In fact, a 2K might be the ultimate physical challenge.

ranger

[jliddil]

Dang, my new boat is fast!

"Windhover"

ranger

It is. You are not

[mikvan52]

Rich:
Perhaps you should resist the temptation you seem to have to summarily dismiss my OTW training as somehow being inadequate?... Just a suggestion.. as you analyses make you seem to be ignorant and/or foolish...

Perhaps by maligning me you are merely searching for information from me... That would be a fine tactic on your part.

See my workout today... I did scull for 20k in my single. Valuable work for the head race distance races coming this fall.
The workout included over 5k of rowing faster than my head race goal pace (2:00/500 pace).

see: http://concept2.co.uk/forum/blog.php?u=7679&b=75961


Part of this workout included:

2 sets of 5 x (2 min on/ 2 min off) w/performance goals for the "ons" and the "offs". (5' rest between sets)

on = 2:02 or faster
off = 2:30 or faster
I also had to use my best form throughout.

To go under 2:00 avg pace for the "ons" was a nice milestone especially as my rate floated where it wanted to go.

From my breathing pattern I could tell I did not reach AT...

I only share this with you so that the maverick in you will rule out this type of workout as one you'd eventually do.... like the one I shared with you the other day.

I hope you will rule out all my workouts and all those that accomplished scullers do... so you can be splendiferously unique in you manly rangerly-ness...

BTW: WTF is a "sequence" ? As in "I did one sequence where I saw a rate and pace of".... PD vague for an individual who is so precise about his spi!

The whole world is getting mighty sick of mavericks, ya know!

[Nosmo]

In the Veterans race at the Head of the Charles, accomplished lifelong scullers such as Dietz, Mike VB, and Spousta (all rowing coaches now!) have been able to dominate, despite their steep physical decline and weak training habits--but only accidentally.

And of course you know exactly how Dietz and Spousta train.
They accidentally dominate. Thats a good one.

[ranger]

2 sets of 5 x (2 min on/ 2 min off) w/performance goals for the "ons" and the "offs". (5' rest between sets)

on = 2:02 or faster
off = 2:30 or faster
I also had to use my best form throughout.

To go under 2:00 avg pace for the "ons" was a nice milestone especially as my rate floated where it wanted to go.

From my breathing pattern I could tell I did not reach AT...

I only share this with you so that the maverick in you will rule out this type of workout as one you'd eventually do.... like the one I shared with you the other day.

Odd that you would have me rule out rowing with breaks at 5K pace, concentrating on technique, but, hey, so it goes.

Sure, I love to do this sort of thing on the erg, but with more like a few seconds rest than two minutes rest.

On the erg, with equal rest, I like to do them at 2K rather than 5K and do 20 of them rather than 10.

Or at 2K + 2 and do 40 of them, rather than 20.

In the fall of 2003, on the erg, I did 20 x 500m (paddle a 500m inbetween) @ 1:36.

I did 40 x 500m (paddle a 500m inbetween) at 1:39.

I will start doing these things again come September.

None of this has much relevance to what I am doing OTW at the moment.

OTW, I am just learning to row.

I repeat: OTW we are in very different places with our training.

ranger