Ranger's training thread

[hjs]

You haven't done a 5K at any rate

Sure I have.

My pb for 5K on the erg is 17:10/1:43, rating 32 spm.

In that 5K trial, I did 1:36 over the last 500m.


ranger

8 years ago

[macroth]

So, if I go to bed at 9 p.m., I wake up at 2 a.m.

This gives me time to wake up, do my erging, eat breakfast, and do my OTW rowing--all before dawn.

(blah blah) erging and rowing OTW for several hours.

ranger

Ok, then.

2 a.m. - Ranger wakes up
2:44, 2.48, 3.01, 3.59, 4:07, 4:26, 4.42, 5:14, 5:18 - Ranger is posting on the Internet
6:06 a.m. - Sun rises on Ann Arbor, MI

I see time for breakfast and at most 2 hours of erging. Feeling lazy today? Or just lying as usual?

[whp4]

So, if I go to bed at 9 p.m., I wake up at 2 a.m.

This gives me time to wake up, do my erging, eat breakfast, and do my OTW rowing--all before dawn.

(blah blah) erging and rowing OTW for several hours.

ranger

Ok, then.

2 a.m. - Ranger wakes up
2:44, 2.48, 3.01, 3.59, 4:07, 4:26, 4.42, 5:14, 5:18 - Ranger is posting on the Internet
6:06 a.m. - Sun rises on Ann Arbor, MI

I see time for breakfast and at most 2 hours of erging. Feeling lazy today? Or just lying as usual?

He won't race his training, or his peers, but he's willing to race his posting

[mikvan52]

rangerboy is going to be dead slow on the water

Yea, 2:05 @ 26 spm is only 7 SPI, but given my age, it is entirely adequate to win the Head of the Charles, something that Mike VB has ever come close to doing, and as it appears now, never will.

And when all is said and done, I don't think I will just pull 7 SPI.

OTW, I will get better and better technically as the years go by.

The limit of my technical potential is 8 SPI, not 7 SPI.

And then there is this:

When all is said and done, both OTW and on the erg, given my physical capacities, I don't think I will just rate 26 spm for 3 miles/5K, either.

I think I will rate 30 spm.

I'll post a video doing some 2:05 @ 26 spm in my new Fluid over the next couple of days, so you can see how slow I am right now--and why--even though I will be going faster than Dietz was going to win the Veterans race at the Head of the Charles 2009.

Of course, I would be delighted to hear any technical pointers you might want to offer about what I might do to get better.

ranger

What a crafty snake you are?
First you charm us with your compliments such as "(Mike will never win the HOCR)" and then you ask for advice.
You are a riot!

I do have an idea for you RIch though: When Mme. Cureton takes the vid' of "some 2:05".... First row "whole bunches of" or "oodles of" 2:05 w/o a break so we see you fully warmed up and properly taxed by a substantial effort.

You could have the camera positioned at the final stretch of the row. The purpose? ---- you could then claim an uninterrupted row for a substantial time period. I point this out because clips of "some" rowing do not convince any of us that you are capable of maintaining pace for longer periods.

Now if you got some one, such as a coach, to follow you in a launch and video you....
Perish the thought! Having the camera zoom in on pertinent features of stroke-ranger? That would be delightful!
Surely you have a few bucks salted away that you be devoted to such a pursuit?


BTW:
What's the longest uninterrupted row YOU'VE EVER done OTW?
What was the pace and rate?

(why do I feel such questions will not be answered?)

[mikvan52]

You are faster on the erg. I am faster in the boat.

Per stroke, right now?

Yes.

But the other issue is effciency: %HRR at various rates.

How far can you rate up?

If you maintain 7.87 SPI, the answer is clear: Not very far.

For 5K, 24 spm/2:03 is about it, perhaps 25 spm/2:00 (at your very best).

This is wretched efficiency.

Over the years, you haven't lost any effectiveness at all.

(Nor has Dietz or Spousta, I would presume).

But your loss of efficiency has been enormous.

Younger rowers who row as well would rate 32 spm for 5K and therefore are 11 seconds per 500m faster than you.

This 11 seconds per 500m is exactly the gap between the Open 2K lightweight WR (5:58) and the 60s lightweight WR (6:42) on the erg.

On the erg, at 12 SPI, 5:58 is 40 spm.

6:42 is 28 spm.

In terms of efficiency, through aging, you have lost about 3 spms a decade.

At 12 SPI, that's 36 watts.

Three seconds per 500m.

If I pull 6:16 on the erg this next year, when I am fully trained and rowing well, it will also be clear:

Over the years, my efficiency has not declined nearly as much.

Less than half as much, pushing one-third.

One second per 500m a decade.

Rowing is partly technical/skeletal-muscuiar/effectiveness; partly physiological/aerobic/efficiency.

The pace you can maintain over some distance is the product of the two, not just attributable to one or the other.

For the best young elite rowers, the issue of efficiency is largely neutralized.

By and large, young elite rowers have the same physiological/aerobic efficiency.

Not so with older rowers, especially veteran (60s) rowers, as I will demonstrate.

OTW, holding 7 SPI, I am not sure that I will rate 32 spm for 5K.

But I am pretty sure that I will rate 30 spm.

For 1K, I will rate 38 spm.

ranger

Again you are being dreary with your ridiculous spi-based view of rowing.
How about a simpler one?
Who is it that gets to the finish line first?
Of course this requires getting to a finish line. Talking about "if and when" you do is another matter entirely.

I only reason I post spi data because it shows something to you... not to me.
For your purposes I am currently 11% "better" in the spi realm. I prefer to look at it in simpler ways.

Example at, say 25 spm, you move the boat at 2:05 pace while I move it a 1:59 pace... for "some" rowing.
Sadly, you will not say what "some" means.

On the erg you hold 1:40 pace for 2k; I hold 1:42 pace.
Now isn't that simple?

All this leaves and observer to wonder: "why is it that ranger is so much slower on the water?"
1. He rows more meters OTW than Mike?
2. He rows more meters on the erg than Mike?

Answer: (I'll let any observer fill this in)

Footnote:
Subject: What 'some' means:
Here's a some for you, RIch:

Ladder
4'3'2'1'2'3'4'

rates: 18-20-22-24-22-20-18

7:00 pm July 7th 2010

4' @ 2:15 & 18.5 spm = 73 strokes
3' @ 2:10 & 20.0 = 61 str
2' @ 2:05 & 23.0 = 46 str
1' @ 1:59 & 25.5 = 25 str
2' @ 2:10 & 22.0 = 45 str
3' @ 2:12 & 21.0 = 63 str
4' @ 2:14 & 20.0 = 79 str
........................................... 2:11.4 avg for the 19 minutes
........................................... 392 strokes= 20.63 spm for entire piece
........................................... 7.48 spi



What's "some" in ranger-speak?

[ranger]

I got to 2:03 @ 26 spm today OTW, albeit just briefly.

Delighted with that.

I am getting the feel of how to grab more water.

I will need to get to a sustainable 2:00 @ 26 spm to match Mike VB's effectiveness.

So quite a ways to go yet.

Worked hard on technique in my erging, too, lots of 1:49 @ 22 spm (12.3 SPI), searching for more compression and a straighter back at the catch.

ranger

[ranger]

I point this out because clips of "some" rowing do not convince any of us that you are capable of maintaining pace for longer periods.

Why not?

I am surprised.

You should assume just the opposite.

My physical capacities are my greatest strengths.

I have no problem with strength, endurance, aerobic capacity, etc.

ranger

[ranger]

Having the camera zoom in on pertinent features of stroke-ranger? That would be delightful!

I'll post a video doing some 2:05 @ 26 spm in my new Fluid over the next couple of days.

That's right about what you do at the Head of the Charles, no?

Enjoy!

ranger

[jliddil]

You might as well argue about how many angles can dance on the head of a pin.

Greg,

First you can postulate a circular pinhead, which is a reasonable assumption. That would give you 360 degrees to work with. Then it is a matter of choosing the size of the angles that you want to use. If you take the size down to decreasingly smaller numbers of degrees, the number of angles possible gets increasingly large. Then there is the question of whether or not all the angles have the same number of degrees of arc, but that brings up further complications. Maybe that problem should be referred to Byron.

Bob S., a typo aficianado.

And what units are we using?

Degrees?
Minutes of arc?
radian?
mil?
point?
binary degree?
grad?
hour angle?
Are we using Euclidean geometry?
Dot product?
Riemannian geometry?

[ranger]

I do have an idea for you RIch though: When Mme. Cureton takes the vid' of "some 2:05".... First row "whole bunches of" or "oodles of" 2:05 w/o a break so we see you fully warmed up and properly taxed by a substantial effort.

I am not sure why you keep coming back to this.

I do 20K on the erg every day before I go out OTW.

I don't have any trouble with the physical challenges of rowing.

From day to day, I do about three times as much work as you do.

ranger

[jliddil]

No, I will be fully trained this year, with both distance trials and sharpening.

There is no mystery in the process whatsoever--and ergs don't lie.

ranger

You will find a reason not to be
Ergs are inanimate objects they can neither lie or tell the truth. It must be an LSD falshback

[mikvan52]

I do have an idea for you RIch though: When Mme. Cureton takes the vid' of "some 2:05".... First row "whole bunches of" or "oodles of" 2:05 w/o a break so we see you fully warmed up and properly taxed by a substantial effort.

I am not sure why you keep coming back to this.

I do 20K on the erg every day before I go out OTW.

I don't have any trouble with the physical challenges of rowing.

From day to day, I do about three times as much work as you do.

ranger

There's your cuteness showing through again: " I am not sure...." (Right!)

Rich: The erg is not the boat. Well, perhaps I'm wrong there because for you neither of them moves very much

"physical challenges"? You win the "challenged" division every time.
Yes, you do much more work than I do. I've pointed that out too... Funny that I'm faster at my chosen focus => sculling.

And (!) you have the perfect stroke which you are "happy about" while I'm endlessly working on improving mine.

So many differences!

I compete, you don't is another
Even indoors: Since I've been around (4 years) you've not been to Crash-B's... go figure!

When's your first race going to be OTW? ... '11? '12?? '13???
I'm not holding my breath.

Friendly advice now:

Repeat after me. "Long duration erging does not emulate long duration rowing. Therefore, in the summer I will row before I erg in order to practice the skills I need to get better on the water.
This will not hurt my indoor rowing because OTW form does not hurt OTErg results. The converse is seldom true.

There is no need to wear myself out on the erg and then go out for a shorter stint on the water using erg-form.
People need to scull as many good strokes as they can on the water to master that discipline."

Cheers!

See you at Crash-b in the year 2013.. we'll both be in the same age-group again.

[ranger]

Here's a some for you, RIch:

Ladder
4'3'2'1'2'3'4'

rates: 18-20-22-24-22-20-18

7:00 pm July 7th 2010

4' @ 2:15 & 18.5 spm = 73 strokes
3' @ 2:10 & 20.0 = 61 str
2' @ 2:05 & 23.0 = 46 str
1' @ 1:59 & 25.5 = 25 str
2' @ 2:10 & 22.0 = 45 str
3' @ 2:12 & 21.0 = 63 str
4' @ 2:14 & 20.0 = 79 str
........................................... 2:11.4 avg for the 19 minutes
........................................... 392 strokes= 20.63 spm for entire piece
........................................... 7.48 spi

Nice one.

You are certainly working hard.

If 24 spm is your anaerobic threshold, getting to 25.5 spm for a minute in the middle of this piece is admirable.

Top-notch effort.

ranger

[JimR]

A thought just occured to me ... a pattern as it were ...

Ranger determines he has a theoritical 2k erg time of 6:16 ... and has spent years attempting to acheive it, while it slips ever further from his grasp.

Now the story is turning to OTW pursuits .. and again there is the idea of a "potential" acheivement to be acheived.

The point ... if eveyone agrees that mastering an erg is far easier than a boat ... and the erg is not yet mastered ... then how long might it take to master the boat?!

Especially since the references made to others that have been doing this their whole lives indicates a boat is a hard thing to master.

I submit (refering to a lancs posting earlier) that what we are "in for" is ranger talking about his otw potential for the rest of his life ... while never actually acheiving it ... perhaps with never actually trying to acheive it.

Interesting?!

JimR

[ranger]

Repeat after me. "OTW form does not hurt OTErg results. There is no need to wear myself out on the erg and then go out for a shorter stint on the water using erg-form. People need to scull as many good strokes as they can on the water to master that discipline."

The erg _doesn't_ wear me out.

In terms of energy levels, I do fine OTW after erging.

i agree that OTW form doesn't hurt OTErg results.

That's why I am trying to use an OTW stroke in my erging.

I also agree that people need to scull a lot of strokes OTW to master the discipline.

That's why I am sculling a lot.

I prefer to erg before sculling for other reasons.

I can erg before it gets light.

I can't scull before it gets light, or if I can, I don't prefer to.

I like to do my workouts when it is cool and pleasant, before the sun is up and it gets hot and nasty.

ranger