Ranger's training thread

[hjs]

What you posted has nothing to do with the technique you really use.

Nope.

It's exactly the stroke I use, at all rates and paces, both OTW and off.

ranger

proof it old man, show a test piece, instead of some meaningless few strokes.

[ranger]

show a test piece

Tests are a waste of time.

What makes you better is solid training.

For a 60s lwt, things like a lot of 1:50 @ 22 spm (12 SPI).

Day after day.

Or, as I prefer most days, a lot of 1:45 @ 26 spm (11.5 SPI).

ranger

[ranger]

RIch:Please attempt some form of lucidity here.

O.K.

"What does a 1:41.5 pace for 2k on the erg have to do with a winning performance at the HOCR?

For rowers of the same weight and technical accomplishment, everything. In fact, for rowers of the same weight and technical accomplishment, if one rower does 1:41 for 5K on the erg and the other does 1:48, it is a good bet that the first rower will beat the second rower for 5K OTW by seven seconds per 500m, too.

Answer: very little First of all the distances aren't even comparable.
2k is a sprint. 5k is not ... in both disciplines.

The 2K is not a sprint. And 5K is not really a distance row. Of all of the events, I find 2K and 5K the most similar and the most stably related to one another (by something like this: 5K = 2K + 5).

Look at a very excellent athlete like Stan Vegar: a 6:16 erg for 2k and a more modest 20:45 at the Charles.(3 miles) IOW:

I would guess that this is just a matter of his weight. The erg doesn't punish weight; OTW rowing does. If Stan weighs 220 lbs., he outweighs you by 62 lbs., or 28 kgs. Over 2K, each additional kg. is worth about a second over 2K, 2.5 seconds over 5K. So, adjusted to your weight, Stan pulls 6:44 for 2K.

There is no certainty in assigning "spi" or pace tables across the board when discussing OTErg vs OTW...You are currently a 6:40 erg for 2k..(best by far for a lwt 59 year-old). What's your 5k OTW?.... See what I mean? And you've rowed, by your testimony, 10 million meters on the water... Why no excellence on the water when you're indisputably great on the erg? What's your best 1k and/or 2k on the water?

I haven't been doing "pieces" OTW. I have just been rowing. But I now do a nice 2:05 at 26 spm. This is not bad rowing at all. In fact, it is just about what you do.

My OTW paces are 18 seconds per 500m from my erg paces at the same rate. So, sure, I still have a lot to learn. If 12 seconds per 500m is the limit, then I can still get 6 seconds per 500m better OTW. I don't take this as discouraging at all, given how fast I am already.

If your recent 5Ks and 1Ks OTW are any indication, you seem to be at about a 14 seconds per 500m gap between your erg scores and your OTW scores. So, you are quite a bit better than I am technically.

I make up this gap (and more) with my physicality, though. And as my OTW technique improves, my advantage will just get greater yet.

For 5K on the erg, my goal for this next year is 1:39, about 8 seconds per 500m better than yours.

And my technique OTW is indeed improving rapidly.

I get better each time out.

ranger

[mikvan52]

show a test piece

Tests are a waste of time.

What makes you better is solid training.

..and what gets you a WR or a 1st place at a championship is...(?)

solid training??? .... sure!
(Let's just humor him as is standard protocol w/hopeless cases.)

"Racing is entirely redundant"
"Good is Bad"
"ranger is unprecedentedly the best, ever, at everything he has never tried"

Sounds like dialog from a sequel to Orwell's 1984.

Is is called "2003" Alt. title: the hard-sharpener

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hATC_2I1 ... re=related

[mikvan52]

RIch:

In regard to your recent post:
Re: Ranger's training thread
by ranger » July 7th, 2010, 12:38 pm

Your are pushing the wrong buttons my friend.
There is no point answering asserting things that are so blatantly false.
eg:
"We row about the same paces and rates OTW"

You've recently agreed that we do not.
I know it's a warm out these days, but you've lost it!

Post some data Rich: not merely a pace and rate you've attained for few strokes...

[ranger]

Post some data Rich: not merely a pace and rate you've attained for few strokes...

Given that rates feel about the same for both of us whether we are on the erg or OTW, the important "data" about my OTW rowing is what paces I do at what rates, my OTW SPI.

My OTW SPI indicates how well I am rowing, how fast I am going at various rates (i.e., various levels of effort, %HRR, etc.).

I don't have any problem with the physical side of rowing (endurance, aerobic capacity, strength, etc.), as I have demonstrated.

And I can rate up.

You can't.

When I start racing OTW, there will be plenty of other sorts of data to support this, but for now, the information I am passing on is entirely adequate for you to understand how I am doing OTW.

OTW, I pull right around 7 SPI.

If I can get the gap between my erg times and OTW times down to the theoretical limit for lightweights of 12 seconds per 500m at the same rate, I can raise that OTW SPI to 8 (e.g., 1:59 @ 26 spm).

ranger

[hjs]

show a test piece

Tests are a waste of time.

ranger

No they show if you are on the right track. Looking at your results, doing some could have helped you

[mikvan52]

This is getting tedious and dreary.
I post the details of my workouts.
You do not.
My numbers in the boat are substantially faster than yours (such as 1:51.x pace for 500 meters at 31 spm... 7.87 spi in ranger-speak)

You say "You think" you are at about 7.0 spi for some unspecified length of time or distance.
Even by the spi measure I am 11% better than you.

You acknowledged this in a post. Have you forgotten?

< end of discussion >

Do you like rewriting the past, "Mr. Oar-well"?
Be reasonable: You are faster on the erg. I am faster in the boat. THere are a host of reasons for this. We don't need to fabricate reality.

Rich:
Go out on the water in your top of the line racing single.
Row a 500m piece... any 500 piece w/as much effort as you wish... report back the time and rate (or number of strokes) for the effort.
Capiche?

[ranger]

My numbers in the boat are substantially faster than yours (such as 1:51.x pace for 500 meters at 31 spm... 7.87 spi in ranger-speak)

Yes, indeed.

You are quite a bit more effective that I am OTW.

When you hold your technique together, as you do OTW, you might well be more effective than me on the erg, too.

That is why I have been working on technique--and should continue to work on it.

ranger

[ranger]

You are faster on the erg. I am faster in the boat.

Per stroke, right now?

Yes.

But the other issue is effciency: %HRR at various rates.

How far can you rate up?

If you maintain 7.87 SPI, the answer is clear: Not very far.

For 5K, 24 spm/2:03 is about it, perhaps 25 spm/2:00 (at your very best).

This is wretched efficiency.

Over the years, you haven't lost any effectiveness at all.

(Nor has Dietz or Spousta, I would presume).

But your loss of efficiency has been enormous.

Younger rowers who row as well would rate 32 spm for 5K and therefore are 11 seconds per 500m faster than you.

This 11 seconds per 500m is exactly the gap between the Open 2K lightweight WR (5:58) and the 60s lightweight WR (6:42) on the erg.

On the erg, at 12 SPI, 5:58 is 40 spm.

6:42 is 28 spm.

In terms of efficiency, through aging, you have lost about 3 spms a decade.

At 12 SPI, that's 36 watts.

Three seconds per 500m.

If I pull 6:16 on the erg this next year, when I am fully trained and rowing well, it will also be clear:

Over the years, my efficiency has not declined nearly as much.

Less than half as much, pushing one-third.

One second per 500m a decade.

Rowing is partly technical/skeletal-muscuiar/effectiveness; partly physiological/aerobic/efficiency.

The pace you can maintain over some distance is the product of the two, not just attributable to one or the other.

For the best young elite rowers, the issue of efficiency is largely neutralized.

By and large, young elite rowers have the same physiological/aerobic efficiency.

Not so with older rowers, especially veteran (60s) rowers, as I will demonstrate.

OTW, holding 7 SPI, I am not sure that I will rate 32 spm for 5K.

But I am pretty sure that I will rate 30 spm.

For 1K, I will rate 38 spm.

ranger

[ranger]

[removed]

[ranger]

Mike--

If you could rate up, holding your technique together, OTW, you could rate up, holding your technique together, on the erg.

You can't.

You can only pull 3:17 for 1K on the erg.

That's wretched.

The limitation is not your effectiveness, how well you row.

The limitation is your efficiency, your physiological decline with age.

Younger lightweights would do a 1K on the erg at 40 spm.

If you hold your technique together, you can only rate 30 spm.

ranger

[Flipper21]

Timothy Leary coined the phrase "Turn on, tune in, drop out" . This is pure ranger speak, the man has never recovered from the acid trip he so indulged in back in the 60's. Get real people and stop embarrassing yourselves by returning any replies to the spaced out ramblings of an acid head. His reality is so very different from ours. STOP makimg any attempt to engage in idiotic conversation with this spaced out individual.


You only go on to embarrass this knowledgable community with your bona fide replies to the lunatic who baits you.

Cease, and treat the lunatic accordingly.

[ranger]

end of discussion

Yes.

The facts are clear.

ranger

[ranger]

Rich:
Go out on the water in your top of the line racing single.
Row a 500m piece... any 500 piece w/as much effort as you wish... report back the time and rate (or number of strokes) for the effort.

Yes, that's how you train.

Given your steep physiological decline with age, what is there left to do that isn't just limping along at a crawl?

I am in a very different sitation.

I still have access to other productive modes of training.

With a maxHR of 190 bpm, I can run my HR at 170 bpm for an hour.

With a maxHR of 163 bpm, you can't run your HR at 160 bpm for more than a couple of minutes.

Over the years, the decline in my maxHR has been _half_ of the decline in yours.

ranger