Ranger's training thread

[Rockin Roland]

Actually he has improved a little. He's now rowing using 3/4 slide instead of half slide. But he's still not achieving full compression at the catch and his finishes remain unchanged (not finishing the stroke off).

Oh, plus he's still dipping his hands at the catch.

So you must give him some credit for the minor improvement but he's still got plenty of work to do on his technique.

[ranger]

there's nothing that has been done or said to indicate that Ranger knows much at all about rowing or sculling or how to move a boat fast

Well, depends what you mean by "fast."

It appears that I now move a boat just as fast as Dietz, Spousta, or Mike VB.

OTW, I now do 18 seconds per 500m off of my erg times at the same rate, with the same rate feeling like pretty much the same effort on the erg or OTW.

So, today, OTW, I was doing 2:05 @ 26 spm, comparable to 1:47 @ 26 (11 SPI) on the erg.

That's moving the boat every bit as good as Dietz, Spousta, or Mike VB.

Now, the only question will be how far I can rate up, both on the erg and OTW, over a given distance.

This next year, my goal for 5K on the erg is 1:39 @ 32 spm (11.2 SPI). That would be comparable to 1:57 OTW.

My pb for 5K on the erg is 1:43. That's comparable to 2:01 OTW.

This next year, my goal for 1K on the erg is 1:30. That would be comparable to 1:48 OTW.

My pb for 1K is 1:33.5. That is comparable to 1:51.5 OTW.

The other issue is that, given that I am new to the sport, I am still on a steep learning curve, while Dietz, Spousta, and Mike VB are all rowing coaches who have been rowing all their lives and therefore have very little to learn about the sport.

If the limit for lightweights is moving a boat 12 seconds per 500m slower than erg times at the same rate and I am only moving my boat 18 seconds slower than my erg times at the moment, then I can still improve 6 seconds per 500m OTW just by continuing to learn how to move a boat.

On the other hand, I assume that Dietz, Mike VB, and Spousta can't improve their technique.

As they age, they will just get slower.

ranger

[ranger]

Actually he has improved a little. He's now rowing using 3/4 slide instead of half slide. But he's still not achieving full compression at the catch and his finishes remain unchanged (not finishing the stroke off).

Oh, plus he's still dipping his hands at the catch.

So you must give him some credit for the minor improvement but he's still got plenty of work to do on his technique.

Yes, I agree.

My shins are not at all vertical yet.

I continue to work on keeping my shoulders relaxed and back vertical at the catch, which helps my compression.

I think I will get it pretty soon.

ranger

[jliddil]

I am going to pull a lwt 6:16 at 60.

You will find a reason not to

[PaulH]

Run them in parallel. Then explain what's changed, apart from the lighting, the bookshelves and the kit Ranger is wearing.

In the second clip he ergs for even less time than he did in the first...

[ausrwr]

there's nothing that has been done or said to indicate that Ranger knows much at all about rowing or sculling or how to move a boat fast

Well, depends what you mean by "fast."

It appears that I now move a boat just as fast as Dietz, Spousta, or Mike VB.

OTW, I now do 18 seconds per 500m off of my erg times at the same rate, with the same rate feeling like pretty much the same effort on the erg or OTW.

So, today, OTW, I was doing 2:05 @ 26 spm, comparable to 1:47 @ 26 (11 SPI) on the erg.

That's moving the boat every bit as good as Dietz, Spousta, or Mike VB.

Now, the only question will be how far I can rate up, both on the erg and OTW, over a given distance.

This next year, my goal for 5K on the erg is 1:39 @ 32 spm (11.2 SPI). That would be comparable to 1:57 OTW.

My pb for 5K on the erg is 1:43. That's comparable to 2:01 OTW.

This next year, my goal for 1K on the erg is 1:30. That would be comparable to 1:48 OTW.

My pb for 1K is 1:33.5. That is comparable to 1:51.5 OTW.

The other issue is that, given that I am new to the sport, I am still on a steep learning curve, while Dietz, Spousta, and Mike VB are all rowing coaches who have been rowing all their lives and therefore have very little to learn about the sport.

If the limit for lightweights is moving a boat 12 seconds per 500m slower than erg times at the same rate and I am only moving my boat 18 seconds slower than my erg times at the moment, then I can still improve 6 seconds per 500m OTW just by continuing to learn how to move a boat.

On the other hand, I assume that Dietz, Mike VB, and Spousta can't improve their technique.

As they age, they will just get slower.

ranger

More bullshit. Until you race, or put up some evidence of the speed at which you're moving the boat, I re-iterate that you have done nothing that says you can move a boat fast. You say you can. Wow.

And you still have pretty much the same faults as noted before: poor sequencing in the recovery, causing the hands to rise up over the knees, and a massive lurch into the catch. If you can't amend your hard-wired technical faults on the stable platform of a machine, you're not going to do it on the water.

At the moment, all you're doing is reinforcing your neural patterns to row badly. You say you take c. 3000 strokes a day. That's 3000 times a day your body is learning to do the wrong thing. 3000 times it's being reinforced that the wrong thing is the way that things are done.

And as you won't listen to anyone else, you're not going to change what you think of as your 'fixed' stroke.

[ranger]

This man broke 06:30 is in his 50s

Let's be precise.

I broke 6:30 when I was over 55, rowing at high drag, still struggling with technique, and without even preparing for it.

This fall and winter, I will race at 123 df., rowing well, and fully prepared.

ranger

[ranger]

Until you race, or put up some evidence of the speed at which you're moving the boat, I re-iterate that you have done nothing that says you can move a boat fast.

No, let's make this clear.

I do it every day.

Evidence that I am doing it is only needed if it is important to convince you of this (which it isn't).

Your "reiterations" are just talk--to yourself--about something that you know nothing about.

ranger

[ranger]

If you can't amend your hard-wired technical faults on the stable platform of a machine, you're not going to do it on the water.

Sure, I can get quite a bit better technically, both on the erg and OTW.

We all can.

In fact, as I mentioned, given that my OTW times are eighteen seconds per 500m slower than my erg times and given that the theoretical limit of this gap for lightweights who row well OTW is 12 seconds per 500m, I assume that I can still get six seconds per 500m better OTW, just by continuing to learn how to move a boat.

On the other hand, as I mentioned as well, there is no need that I get better at all to be quite a bit faster than Dietz, Spousta, and Mike VB--over both 1K and 5K.

For instance, if I indeed get to 1:30/3:00 for 1K on the erg and I reduce the gap in my times between the erg and OTW to 12 seconds per 500m, I will do 1K OTW in 1:42/3:24. Rowing OTW as I do now, I would only do 1:48/3:36.

No need for do 1:42/3:24 OTW for 1K, given my competition (60s Veterans), but sure, it would be nice to achieve if I can.

I'll certainly keep working on it.

Last year, the 60s/G 1x race at the US Masters National regatta was won with a time of 2:01/4:02.

On the erg, the US/American record for 60s lwts is 6:56.

My goal for this next year is 6:16, forty seconds faster, 10 seconds per 500m.

ranger

[ranger]

And as you won't listen to anyone else, you're not going to change what you think of as your 'fixed' stroke.

I have already changed my stroke--enormously.

As Roland points out, I have even changed it significantly over the last three months.

I am not listening?

Not true at all.

I am both listening and using (some of) what I hear in order to improve.

ranger

[mikvan52]

So that's 10 strokes of 1:50 @ 22 spm

Yep.

10 strokes on the video, to illustrate (all the flaws that remain in) my technique.

Off camera, I average about 3000 strokes a day, half on the erg and half OTW.

ranger

You only get a real idea of your stroke if you take a clip of a real test/race etc. What you posted has nothing to do with the technique you really use. So it's useless.

Henry:

S^2D^2 = "Same "Stuff" Different Day"

1500 strokes OTW at 25 spm = 60 minutes of actual rowing not including breaks... hmmm... doesn't add up to 15-20k a day like back in the day.

Oh, well...

[mikvan52]

Re: Ranger's training thread
by ranger » July 7th, 2010, 8:14 am

KevinJGK wrote:
This man broke 06:30 is in his 50s


Let's be precise.

I broke 6:30 when I was over 55, rowing at high drag, still struggling with technique, and without even preparing for it.

This fall and winter, I will race at 123 df., rowing well, and fully prepared.

ranger

And let's be even more precise:
This "man" broke 6:30 when he was over 55 AS A HEAVYWEIGHT...

And let's put it in context:
Cashin and Krum are 55+ hwts who go under 6:20.....

Less power to this man for never preparing anymore w/his "10 million meters" of training per year.

[ranger]

Cashin and Krum are 55+ hwts who go under 6:20.....

Yea, once upon a time.

Not now.

Cashin and Krum both outweigh me by forty pounds.

Cashin is 57; Krum, 56.

By the time they are 60, they will both be 10 seconds slower over 2K.

In the water, each extra kg. slows you down about a second over 2K.

So, adjusted to my weight, Cashin and Krum pull about 6:40 for 2K.

Adjusted to my age, they pull 6:50.

ranger

[ranger]

What you posted has nothing to do with the technique you really use.

Nope.

It's exactly the stroke I use, at all rates and paces, both OTW and off.

ranger

[ranger]

I'll post some video of my OTW rowing over the next couple of days.

Dang, my boat is fast!



Some 2:05 @ 26 spm might be best to illustrate what I can do.

That is what I have been aiming for from day to day in my OTW sessions.

This last year, Dietz won the Veterans (60s) race at the Head of the Charles pulling 2:06 (20:17).

Unadjusted for age, no Veteran has ever done much better than that.

ranger