Ranger's training thread

[jliddil]

.... you are trying to make a logical argument with someone who thinks 1 is 2, 3 is four and 33 is twice 27.

And everyone keeps trying because?

[pmacaula]

...some master scullers may have a slower decline in speed because of experience...Master rowers often get faster because of minor improvements in technique...At a certain point one can't go faster so one must put more emphasis on speed...experience really pays off in strategy and steering...boats have certainly advanced from 1984 to 2010. It would be interesting to see the same data for these same rowers on a straight non-technical course.

Nosmo,
I absolutely agree with you ! My big hope this year is that improvements in technique will have a material impact on this sculler's speed
While I have not scrounged around for data on masters sprint regattas, here is a bit of nifty info on six multiple HOCR winners in the various age group categories (only Dietz won the Champ 1x - in 1965, the first HOCR) & their results over the years:

Code: Select all

Name	Dietz	Spousta	Olrich	Challinor	  Pell	  Hamilton
# wins	 11	    9	     11    	  11     	 7       	2
Period 	44	   16	     14	      17	     13	      10
Max	20:57.1	21:07.3	23:33.1	23:19.0	22:00.5	20:28.6
Min	17:54.2	18:16.9	20:53.7	20:45.1	20:12.8	20:23.3
Avg	19:07.6	19:20.1	22:05.1	21:51.7	20:41.3	20:26.0
Range 03:02.9	02:50.4	02:39.4	02:33.9	01:47.7	00:05.3
1st  -00:39.7  -01:16.9	00:36.6	01:43.8  -00:39.1  -00:05.3
vs last

What is amazing (other than the fact that Dietz has won his 1x division 11 times over a 44 year period !) is that the most recent win for four of the six listed scullers, despite being AT LEAST 10 years after the first win, was FASTER than the first win
For the four with 9 to 11 wins, the range of between fastest and slowest win times is about 2:30 to 3:00.

Rich - You have your work cut out for you beating Dietz & Spousta (and a few others), as they both will get a 16s handicap advantage over you in the Vets category given they will both be 62 in 2011 & that does not factor in any other fast guys who will be coming into the category this year and next.
You could ride the handicap advantage from year to year, as long as your relative rate of decline is less than 8s/year (0.83s/500m), but it looks like the very top guys are already going to be taking significant advantage of the handicap, as appear to be declining much more slowly than that (at least over the long term).

Cheers. Patrick.

[Nosmo]

Pretty Interesting data Patrick.
Your .813 sec/500 is only for the 60 to 61 change. It is up to .94 for 64 to 65. SInce the age handicap is too much one is usually more competitive as one ages.

There is a race out here for 1x,2x, and 2-, where everyone races together. They handicap on the basis of age, boat and sex. Three sets of races for everyone with the entire field ranked from first to last. I'm told that every year it is always a master sculler over 60 who wins (Don Bort this year).

(you quoted me before I could fix my error: should have read "At a certain point one can't go faster so one must put more emphasis on techique")

[mikvan52]

]...s slower decline in speed

Code: Select all

Name	Dietz	Spousta	Olrich	Challinor	  Pell	  Hamilton
# wins	 11	    9	     11    	  11     	 7       	2
Period 	44	   16	     14	      17	     13	      10
Max	20:57.1	21:07.3	23:33.1	23:19.0	22:00.5	20:28.6
Min	17:54.2	18:16.9	20:53.7	20:45.1	20:12.8	20:23.3
Avg	19:07.6	19:20.1	22:05.1	21:51.7	20:41.3	20:26.0
Range 03:02.9	02:50.4	02:39.4	02:33.9	01:47.7	00:05.3
1st  -00:39.7  -01:16.9	00:36.6	01:43.8  -00:39.1  -00:05.3
vs last

Conditions should be factored in for some of this data... But there's little way to do this properly.

[ranger]

While it is pointless to argue about whether you are an even more exceptional physical specimen than either Spousta or Dietz, I would suggest that your best opportunity to win against this kind of competition is when you are among the youngest in the age bracket.

Sure, if you are taking about experienced OTW rowers, lke Dietz and Spousta, who have been racing all their lives OTW (i.e., for decades and decades).

Not necessarily, otherwise.

OTW, I suspect I am now _improving_ each year three or four times as much Dietz and Spousta are declining.

I am just learning to row!

This improvement isn't due to minor changes in technique and experience and things like steering.

This improvement comes from the fact that I am a complete novice OTW and am just getting used to the sport.

I have never had any instruction.

I have never raced at all (sweeps or sculls), much less at the HOTC.

I have never been on a rowing team.

I don't even belong to a club.

I have never even been to a rowing race--even as a spectator.

I am in pretty good shape, though, and indeed row a lot, both OTW and on the erg.

I am a former WR-holder on the erg.

And if I reach my goals on the erg for this next year, I will now redefine standards in decline with age in erging at all distances from 20 to 60 by 6-10 seconds per 500.

Physical capacity and training are the two most important element of boat speed.

From 20 to 60, people like Dietz and Spousta have declined 15 seconds per 500m.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Dietz and Spousta have declined 15 seconds per 500m.

Funny to think of people who win so much as "hav(ing) declined"



What have you won in recent years in head-to-head racing? even on the erg...??
... or are you just in insincere master provokateur (besides being a sculling insouciant)

Rewrite the record books in the 60-65 lwt erg (with all fifty or so participants world wide) more spi power to you!

You will never get into the top group at the HOCR if you never scull in races.. IT cannot be prepped for on an erg. (that is by rowing only 30% (or less) of your meters there...

Your current erg form shows this in excruciating redundancy

This video you posted from this March documents a great erg form but poor rowing form. Don't believe me... take it to Craftsbury with you and ask an unbiased pro...



The more you practice this form, the more ingrained it becomes...
What is your 5k time on the water (any distance/rate/effort level)?
Please stopped hiding behind: "I'll post a time when fully trained"

[ranger]

Nice 13K OTW, after erging.

I am _really_ getting used to the dynamics of the Fluid now.

I was doing some 1:56 @ 31 spm today.

At 18 seconds per 500m off of my erging times at the same rate, that's the equivalent of 1:38 @ 31 spm (12 SPI), which is just what I pulled for 2K on the erg back in Baltimore in 2006, without even preparing for it, when I was 55, kicking it in for a 6:29.7.

31 spm is now my target rate for 5K.

1:56 @ 31 spm right about what Mike VB did for 1K to win the 55s divisions at the US Masters regatta last year.

So, clearly, there is nothing wrong with my technique at all.

I am doing wonderfully.

I don't think that 31 spm is the limit of what I can rate for 1K OTW, though, either.

As I mentioned yesterday, I think I might be able to rate 38 spm for 1K, as I would for four minutes on the erg.

ranger

[ranger]

You will never get into the top group at the HOCR if you never scull in races..

Are you reading the thread?

I have already said:

I will do a round of head races this fall, as I intended to do last fall, but didn't.

Actually, I now glad that I waited until this year.

The Fluid is _so_ much better than the Peinert it's ridiculous.

Then, I will do a round of sprint races next spring.

Then, I will try to get into the Head of the Charles for the fall of 2011, when I am 60.

ranger

[ranger]

the HOCR...cannot be prepped for on an erg. (that is by rowing only 30% (or less) of your meters there...

Depends on how many meters you do.

30% of 5K is just a mile.

30% of 50K is 10 miles.

My erging is just _In addition_ to my OTW rowing.

I am now getting in 13K a day OTW, after 20K on the erg.

I will move that to 20K OTW, too, as soon as possible.

Do you do more than that?

Didn't think so.

ranger

[ranger]

This video you posted from this March documents a great erg form but poor rowing form. Don't believe me... take it to Craftsbury with you and ask an unbiased pro...

Sure, I have been adjusting my stroke in various ways all along.

The video was taken rowing at max drag, which makes you shorten up and use your upper body both more and somewhat out of sequence, in order to maximize effectiveness and efficiency.

I now row at 123 df.

Pretty different affair.

At low drag, you get more power if you use the full slide and delay the engagement of your upper body as much as possible.

You are right.

To row this way is mandatory OTW.

Nothing wrong with my stroke now, either OTW or on the erg.

I think both the mechanics and rhythm of the stroke are just fine, as is the power and efficiency I achieve.

If it's not, you should worry about yours.

OTW, I am now doing 1:56 @ 31 spm, just what you do.

For me, that's the equivalent of 12 SPI on the erg, 1:38 @ 31 spm.

In the Fluid, I am now getting a consistent 18 second per 500m gap between my erg paces and my OTW paces at the same rate.

As far as stroking power goes, for a lightweight of any age, 12 SPI is perfect.

At 40 spm, that's 480 watts, 1:30 pace.

ranger

[ranger]

Your current erg form shows this

You don't have any video of my current erging form, or any video of my current OTW rowing, either.

I was holding a nice 2:04 @ 26 spm OTW today in my Fluid.

Delighted with that.

For a 60s rower, that's _very_ good stroking.

On the erg, I have been doing something exactly comparable: 1:46 @ 26 spm, 18 seconds per 500m slower at the same rate.

ranger

[ranger]

take it to Craftsbury

No need for Craftsbury, if I am rowing this well.

No one my age is rowing any better.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Your current erg form shows this

You don't have any video of my current erging form, or any video of my OTW rowing, either.

I was holding a nice 2:04 @ 26 spm OTW today.

Delighted with that.

For a 60s rower, that's _very_ good stroking.

ranger

So... you've changed your form again since this spring.... right!

and (forever asking) "holding"... how many meters?

BTW (once again) it's not rate which determines sustained pace, Rich.

I was talking to Jack Meyer yesterday: He said that Jim Dietz blew by him at last year's HOCR.... As I've shown here w/video: Dietz under-spms Meyer substantially... please explain this in ranger-ese... should be entertaining...

(Once again: What's a time for you OTW at 5k.. any rate/any effort?... or what does "hold" mean to you... 500 meters?
You have a NK device ... post the down and dirty truth about the "unprecedented"

"2:04 AT A 26 " is most assuredly not "rowing well" if its for only a couple hundred meters.

It's such a waste of time to ask you a simple question.

[ranger]

At the moment, the decline with age from 20 to 60 on the erg is 10-12 seconds per 500m (10 seconds per 500m for lightweights, 12 seconds per 500m for heavyweights).

This coming winter, at WIRC 2011, when I turn 60, I will be trying to reduce that to 4 seconds per 500m.

A lwt 6:16 is 26 seconds under the 60s lwt WR, 8 seconds under the 50s lwt WR, two seconds under the 40s lwt WR.

This past year, at 37 years old, Eskild E. pulled 6:16 for 2K on the erg.

Physical capacity and training are the two most important elements of boat speed.

ranger

[mikvan52]

ranger note to self: "studiously avoid the importance of form from here until the cows come in"