Weight Training for Rowing

[macroth]

Please elucidate?

The overhead squat is a great exercise. However, due to the emphasis on stabilizer muscles, you have to use a much lighter weight than with a conventional squat or deadlift. Therefore, the large muscle groups, those that will truly drive adaptations and gains in strength and muscle mass, aren't as stimulated as they should be. Gains in strength and muscle mass using the OHS as a standalone exericse will be slower than with a program that includes and prioritizes the major lifts. The OHS also neglects many of the muscles used in "pulling" motions.

A program such as Starging Strength is not a bodybuilding program, and will give you all the "useful" strength you need. A 15xBW OHS is great. I can't do it myself. But it really should be a secondary goal once you've already built up a decent strength base. And doing only OHS's all the time is a slow, inefficient way to build that base.

The OHS is also difficult to load incrementally in order to make regular progress (because you're limited by what you can power snatch or push-press/jerk with a snatch grip, and by your "core" and shoulder stability, not by your actual leg strength) and prone to sudden failures that require dropping the barbell, which is a problem if you're not on a proper platform with bumper plates.

All in all, for a young novice trainee trying to gain weight and strength for rowing, the OHS should certainly not be at the center of his training. Adding them on the side if you have the time and energy is fine.

[DanMartin]

The overhead squat (as a stand alone exercise) works more muscle tissue/muscle groups than any other exercise. If the trainee works towards doing an overhead squat for 15 reps (with a bar equalling bodyweight) a considerable amount of strength, usable strength, will have been obtained. By systematically increasing food intake "mass" will come.

To simply increase mass for the sake of increasing mass can be done by following a standard bodybuilding "hard gainer" type program. But will he get the biggest rowing bang for the effort?

The rower in question wants to move from lightweight to heavyweight. Getting good at the overhead squat will do that in spades.

You've GOT to be kidding me.

So, he should just do overhead squats, and then he'll get big and strong? If only someone would tell this to athletes from the NFL, NBA, NCAA, MLB, NHL, Tour de France, World Cup, Olympic games, strongman competitions ... maybe we'd have more good athletes out there.

I thought we were discussing rowing?

[milkman21]

The overhead squat (as a stand alone exercise) works more muscle tissue/muscle groups than any other exercise. If the trainee works towards doing an overhead squat for 15 reps (with a bar equalling bodyweight) a considerable amount of strength, usable strength, will have been obtained. By systematically increasing food intake "mass" will come.

To simply increase mass for the sake of increasing mass can be done by following a standard bodybuilding "hard gainer" type program. But will he get the biggest rowing bang for the effort?

The rower in question wants to move from lightweight to heavyweight. Getting good at the overhead squat will do that in spades.

You've GOT to be kidding me.

So, he should just do overhead squats, and then he'll get big and strong? If only someone would tell this to athletes from the NFL, NBA, NCAA, MLB, NHL, Tour de France, World Cup, Olympic games, strongman competitions ... maybe we'd have more good athletes out there.

I thought we were discussing rowing?

Absolutely. Your argument is the definition of myopic, though.

Yes, the overhead squat is a good (if not great) exercise. But what exactly does an overhead squat offer that a complete weight training routine doesn't? What makes it preferable to a routine that includes, for example deadlifts and back squats? Better than a routine that includes pull-ups, horizontal-plane rows, and unilateral leg work?

[milkman21]

Please elucidate?

The overhead squat is a great exercise. However, due to the emphasis on stabilizer muscles, you have to use a much lighter weight than with a conventional squat or deadlift. Therefore, the large muscle groups, those that will truly drive adaptations and gains in strength and muscle mass, aren't as stimulated as they should be. Gains in strength and muscle mass using the OHS as a standalone exericse will be slower than with a program that includes and prioritizes the major lifts. The OHS also neglects many of the muscles used in "pulling" motions.

A program such as Starging Strength is not a bodybuilding program, and will give you all the "useful" strength you need. A 15xBW OHS is great. I can't do it myself. But it really should be a secondary goal once you've already built up a decent strength base. And doing only OHS's all the time is a slow, inefficient way to build that base.

The OHS is also difficult to load incrementally in order to make regular progress (because you're limited by what you can power snatch or push-press/jerk with a snatch grip, and by your "core" and shoulder stability, not by your actual leg strength) and prone to sudden failures that require dropping the barbell, which is a problem if you're not on a proper platform with bumper plates.

All in all, for a young novice trainee trying to gain weight and strength for rowing, the OHS should certainly not be at the center of his training. Adding them on the side if you have the time and energy is fine.

This. Precisely this.

[DanMartin]

Please elucidate?

The overhead squat is a great exercise. However, due to the emphasis on stabilizer muscles, you have to use a much lighter weight than with a conventional squat or deadlift. Therefore, the large muscle groups, those that will truly drive adaptations and gains in strength and muscle mass, aren't as stimulated as they should be. Gains in strength and muscle mass using the OHS as a standalone exericse will be slower than with a program that includes and prioritizes the major lifts. The OHS also neglects many of the muscles used in "pulling" motions.

A program such as Starging Strength is not a bodybuilding program, and will give you all the "useful" strength you need. A 15xBW OHS is great. I can't do it myself. But it really should be a secondary goal once you've already built up a decent strength base. And doing only OHS's all the time is a slow, inefficient way to build that base.

The OHS is also difficult to load incrementally in order to make regular progress (because you're limited by what you can power snatch or push-press/jerk with a snatch grip, and by your "core" and shoulder stability, not by your actual leg strength) and prone to sudden failures that require dropping the barbell, which is a problem if you're not on a proper platform with bumper plates.

All in all, for a young novice trainee trying to gain weight and strength for rowing, the OHS should certainly not be at the center of his training. Adding them on the side if you have the time and energy is fine.

Are you discounting the value of overhead squats because you don't/can't do them or that few, if any, rowers currently include them in their programs? Sure, it's a tough exercise, any weight training exercise of value is. But all he is asking is for suggestions. Instead of attacking my idea let the wanna be heavyweight decide.

[milkman21]

Instead of attacking my idea let the wanna be heavyweight decide.

I'm sure he feels bad for attacking your idea. It was not right of Mac to attack it like that. Apologize for your ad rem argument, Mac!

Seriously, though, what's wrong with telling the OP when an idea is a bad one? Your idea sucks, man. I'd love to train an athlete to compete against your OHS-only athlete. It would be an interesting battle, for sure.

[DanMartin]

Okay, I get it. Blow me.

[macroth]

Are you discounting the value of overhead squats because you don't/can't do them or that few, if any, rowers currently include them in their programs? Sure, it's a tough exercise, any weight training exercise of value is. But all he is asking is for suggestions. Instead of attacking my idea let the wanna be heavyweight decide.

Sure, let's just give random suggestions and let the kid blindly guess which is best. Or we can discuss the pros and cons of the various suggestions offered.

I can do overhead squats, and don't discount their value. They are tough, but so are one handed barbell snatches blind folded on a bosu ball. That's not the issue.

In this particular case, I just think they are far from ideal. If that makes you sad or angry, my apologies. If you have any actual counter-arguments, go ahead.

[DanMartin]

Are you discounting the value of overhead squats because you don't/can't do them or that few, if any, rowers currently include them in their programs? Sure, it's a tough exercise, any weight training exercise of value is. But all he is asking is for suggestions. Instead of attacking my idea let the wanna be heavyweight decide.

Sure, let's just give random suggestions and let the kid blindly guess which is best. Or we can discuss the pros and cons of the various suggestions offered.

I can do overhead squats, and don't discount their value. They are tough, but so are one handed barbell snatches blind folded on a bosu ball. That's not the issue.

In this particular case, I just think they are far from ideal. If that makes you sad or angry, my apologies. If you have any actual counter-arguments, go ahead.

I'm neither sad nor angry. The suggestion of the overhead squat was merely my response. Clearly, it's not a common one for a rowers strength training program.

[aharmer]

milkman, don't worry about any disagreements with me, I don't take any of this shit seriously. And I promise no matter what you say, I wont ask you to blow me:) Learned a long time ago that arguing about things like nutrition and exercise is akin to doing the same with religion and politics. Complete waste of time. Nobody ever changes another's mind, they just get pissed at each other.

I read Paleo a long time ago and believe in some of his theory, but if memory serves he advocates low saturated fat and only very lean animal protein. My diet couldn't be further from paleo if that is still his stance. My theory is eliminate processed foods, sugar, grains (most important being wheat). Keep fat high via high quality sources, keep carbs low but don't worry about 'good' carbs. Eat wild fish, grass fed beef, pastured chicken and eggs. Keep Vit D levels high through sun or supplementation. Days I don't eat fish I take fish oil supplements. That's it...works for me.

Were we talking about weight training?

[TomR]

Hah!

Rippetoe, Starting Strength, and a gallon of milk a day. Dan John and OH squats. Dan Martin arriving from the Dave Draper and IGX forums. Before you know it, you guys are going to be citing articles from T-Nation and recommending Anaconda.

Why don't you get yourselves all muscled up and see how low you can get the shell in the water.

[mikvan52]

Reference:
This month's Rowing News has a great article on this very topic.
One of the key points is that muscle gain should be sport specific.
The idea being: Just making weight (to become hwt) is an empty goal if isn't producing boat speed,

A element that needs to be considered (beyond the article).... Core balancing... Lateral stability is essential... especially in small boats (1x, 2x, 2-)

[macroth]

Dan Martin arriving from the [...] IGX forums.

Ha! That avatar was familiar. Then the "blow me", definitely IGX-style. So now we have a garmie to balance out the crossfitter.


It's true that bulk for bulk's sake isn't worth it. I'm still waiting for the original poster's current stats.
As for specificity, there's a time for that as well. A few months of non-specific training won't necessarily be harmful, especially this early in his career.
Balancing the boat, however, is VERY specific. I could never get it right.

[DanMartin]

Crossfitters post here? I'm out.

[aharmer]

I'm actually not a Crossfitter...have only been in a Crossfit gym a few times. I do some of the same workouts at my home however. I don't have sleeve tattoos or board shorts, and don't say dude very often:) What's most interesting to me is how people take such dramatic stances when it comes to something as simple and stupid as exercise. I just do what I enjoy...what everybody else is doing has very little impact on my life.