Strokes per minute question

[mikvan52]

Here's another way to look at effective low stroke rate workouts

1. Take your best 2k time and express it in pace per 500m.
.... example : My best 2k these days is 1:42 pace

2. For an hour piece: try 19-20 spm and add 20 to 23 seconds per 500m
.... example : 1:42 + 20 to 23 is 2:02 to 2:05

This feels ridiculously easy in the beginning.
Wait until you get well into the workout. You'll feel like you need to raise the rate. It's at this point where I need to concentrate on providing the best form.

I did such a workout this evening:

View Detail
on slides
1:00:00 no breaks
MAY 10 2010

1 hr. - 15,130m - 1:58.9 avg - 19 spm

• 12' - 2970 - 2:01.2 - 19 (thought I'd just go at 2:04 but felt frisky)
• 24' - 3045 - 1:58.2 - 20 (gettin'in the groove)
• 36' - 3039 - 1:58.4 - 19
• 48' - 3021 - 1:59.1 - 19
• 60' - 3057 - 1:57.7 - 20 little kick at the end

Toward the end I really had to concentrate on not trading rate for pace.

I attribute much of my progress to workouts like this one.
Three years ago I couldn't stay the course with keeping the rate down. These workouts have really improved my form and my efficient use of power.

[johnlvs2run]

1 hr. - 15,130m - 1:58.9 avg - 19 spm

You're taking 13.3 meters per stroke.

This further emphasizes one of my long standing points, that rowing intensely at low rates
ingrains you to rowing intensely at low rates - and is counter productive to rowing intensely at normal ones.

The best rowers in the world, Ebbesen, Luini and Stephansen, all row at 8 meters per stroke.

But because of your low rate training, you are not able to compete effectively at 8 meters per stroke.
As per several of your earlier comments, when you try to raise the rating you end up rushing the recovery.

Why would you not go faster with a higher spm, well it is not possible when you restrict to 19 spm.
But otherwise, a higher spm should result in a faster pace on the monitor, 8 mps should be faster than 13 mps.

All you are doing is simply improving your speed at low ratings.

[jamesg]

He's working on technique, without which there is no speed, nor maybe training either. When technique is good, it's easy to row at any rating. When he feels like it, no doubt he'll do the ten stroke flat out bursts that help to train the start, even tho' the boat may only go 6-8m each stroke.

Rowing has become a television sport, and they only show us what happens in races, where 8m is the unfortunate reality if you race at around 40 at Olympic level. But this has little to do with real life: us scullers like to paddle slow, see the puddles well astern and hear the boat sing. Clips of Xeno and other real scullers paddling are much more interesting, especially if they show the bladework.

[Carl Watts]

I'm with you Mike.

For example my 60 min PB yesterday.

15526m 1:55.9 ave/500m 20 SPM average HR 172 average (yep it hit the roof towards the end)

The only time I would want to be rating at 32 SPM on the Erg is if I was attempting a 6:16 min 2K which is my race pace.Unfortunatley I can only sustain the required rating & pace currently for 500m intervals and I do not forsee me getting to the stage I can string four together in one hit.

IMO all distance rowing should focus on lowering your rating. There is no such thing as getting "locked" into a rating. If you train at low ratings without sacrificing your pace it becomes EASIER to then rate up and further increase your pace, well thats how it's working out for me anyway.

[mikvan52]

1 hr. - 15,130m - 1:58.9 avg - 19 spm

You're taking 13.3 meters per stroke.

This further emphasizes one of my long standing points, that rowing intensely at low rates
ingrains you to rowing intensely at low rates - and is counter productive to rowing intensely at normal ones.

{intentionally left blank and deleted}

But because of your low rate training, you are not able to compete effectively at 8 meters per stroke.
As per several of your earlier comments, when you try to raise the rating you end up rushing the recovery.

Why would you not go faster with a higher spm, well it is not possible when you restrict to 19 spm.
But otherwise, a higher spm should result in a faster pace on the monitor, 8 mps should be faster than 13 mps.

All you are doing is simply improving your speed at low ratings.

"{ }" blank because I'm 57 years old... I can no longer aspire to be like Luini et al. I'm a 6'0" 158-164lb rower who remains at 8% body fat. My VO2 max is somewhere around 58 (not 70!)

John: I am lots faster than a 15000 m hour. This workout is low intensity to learn a useful OTW stroke. I did the workout on slides for that very reason.
Anyone who works out on slides knows that you cannot do a herky-jerky erg stroke and get away with rushed short sliding.

Your assumption about being unable to row at high rates is wrong also: I've just returned from the San Diego Crew Classic where our eight came off the line at 45 spm. We rowed the body of the race at 34-35 and won going away (open water)
I am not a sweep rower any more, but using a smooth stroke (developed by low rate work) sure helped. I learned this by doing many-many low rate workouts.

Erging for me must incorporate smoothness that translates into boat speed. Rate alone does not do it as measured on an erg. Those who feel otherwise are absolutely certain to fail on the water.

This does not mean that you need to have good form if you stick to the erg. Tore Foss used to erg with his knees OUTSIDE his legs on the drive! He won a hammer with a fantastic time.
I erg a 6:47 to 6:49 2k these days... I beat many of the current sub 6:20 ergers on the water

How do you explain that?

I am also the fastest recorded lightweight 55-59 erg-rower in the world at an hour.
I win at all distances on the water. ALL DISTANCES, 1 to 10k.

SO : I think you are mistaken when you say: "because of your low rate training, you are not able to compete effectively at 8 meters per stroke." There is no lightweight faster than me out there

Do your observations come out of a table of stats?
Please forgive my prickliness this morning, but I believe that simplistic numerical hooey is yields crap advice.

The basics: Point "A" to Point "B" OTW... That's all that matters to me.
Lock step adherence to rate formulae doesn't do it.
Do you have any idea how many lower rating crews win? I assume not.

High rating crews win too... but rate by itself is not a determinant. There are very many reasons why.

I watch older men who try to stick to the mantra of "gotta keep the rate up". Perhaps it's to prove (to someone (?)) that they are not aging.. Some do quite well. But...I have not seen any win regularly in major head-to-head competition on the water. Old men who row at lower rates to win over those who don't have the technique to go with their higher rates. The winners may start and sprint high, but the bodies of their pieces are rowed lower than their high-spm counterparts.

Go to the hocr.org website; watch the video archive. You can see what I'm talking about. Watch Stolper (50-59) in his repeat victory in RACE 1. Now watch those who rate it up behind him... This confirms the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Watch Dietz (60-69) (lower rate than Meyer)... on and on it goes.

I leave you with this:
The other afternoon I sculled at the highest rate and speed I've ever done.. I think it was for only 300-350 meters (I'll have to check my record). I do remember the rate: 39 spm. I also remember the pace: 1:32/500m... That kind of stuff hurts an old man like me. It's unsustainable over a 1k. From the feel of it, I could not train myself to get used to it.
Muscle mass decreases with age in concert with other things. I'm getting used to it.
Other older men would do well to HTFU, heed such observations, and design their training plans accordingly...
The one caveat is that those who are confined tot he erg have more latitude... But how many of them are hammer winners? In my analysis: Not more than people of my convictions.

The record as illustrated in my signature below shows that I'm on to something.

[becz]

Your assumption about being unable to row at high rates is wrong also: I've just returned from the San Diego Crew Classic where our eight came off the line at 45 spm. We rowed the body of the race at 34-35 and won going away (open water)
I am not a sweep rower any more, but using a smooth stroke (developed by low rate work) sure helped. I learned this by doing many-many low rate workouts.

Mike - While I agree entirely with what you are saying regarding rate, I do think you've been rowing long enough to know that your continuing to point out your 8+'s rating at SDCC is a little disengenuous (overused word, I know...but applicable here). There is a huge difference between keeping the high rate in an 8+ compared to doing the same in a 1x, and I think you speak to this in your post. Rowing in the mid 30's is indeed very painful in a 1x, and as you point out you don't think that's a rate you could hold for more than 300m or so. So there is obviously a different dynamic (both physical and mental) in an 8+, in which you obviously did hold a high rate for a full 2k. I believe the poking John is doing is in reference to your rate when you are rowing the 1x, not what you've experienced in an 8+. That being said, I guess my only message is don't lower yourself to John's or Rich's standards to make a shaky point. As you said, your signature line does the talking for you.

[johnlvs2run]

I can no longer aspire to be like Luini et al. I'm a 6'0" 158-164lb rower

Well only Luini can row like Luini,

but it is ridiculous that you attempt to row with 2/3's more energy in each stroke.

13.3 / 8.0 = 1.66

Trying to go faster, by taking more time for recovery between strokes is a fruitless endeavor.

The top rowers, Ebbesen, Luini and Stephansen row at 8 mps.

Not 13.3 mps.

{but wait, let's conveniently ignore reality}

[bloomp]

I can no longer aspire to be like Luini et al. I'm a 6'0" 158-164lb rower

Well only Luini can row like Luini,

but it is ridiculous that you attempt to row with 2/3's more energy in each stroke.

13.3 / 8.0 = 1.66

Trying to go faster, by taking more time for recovery between strokes is a fruitless endeavor.

The top rowers, Ebbesen, Luini and Stephansen row at 8 mps.

Not 13.3 mps.

{but wait, let's conveniently ignore reality}

Let's compare similar things here. They row at 8MPS in 2k. Not over an hour. They might also row 8MPS in a 4-, not a 1x. To constantly train at 8MPS is asking for failure. Balanced and effective training requires both low rate and high rate work, over long distances - and high rate work over short distances.

If you want to furnish us with the 60', HM or FM pieces that ELS have done (full split data please), then we might be a little more understanding. But you're still the chump that doesn't row and doesn't understand on the water rowing.

[johnlvs2run]

you're still the chump that doesn't row and doesn't understand on the water rowing.

I'm in great company, as either do Ebbesen, Luini or Stephansen.

[mikvan52]

Your assumption about being unable to row at high rates is wrong also: I've just returned from the San Diego Crew Classic where our eight came off the line at 45 spm. We rowed the body of the race at 34-35 and won going away (open water)
I am not a sweep rower any more, but using a smooth stroke (developed by low rate work) sure helped. I learned this by doing many-many low rate workouts.

Mike - While I agree entirely with what you are saying regarding rate, I do think you've been rowing long enough to know that your continuing to point out your 8+'s rating at SDCC is a little disengenuous (overused word, I know...but applicable here). There is a huge difference between keeping the high rate in an 8+ compared to doing the same in a 1x, and I think you speak to this in your post. Rowing in the mid 30's is indeed very painful in a 1x, and as you point out you don't think that's a rate you could hold for more than 300m or so. So there is obviously a different dynamic (both physical and mental) in an 8+, in which you obviously did hold a high rate for a full 2k. I believe the poking John is doing is in reference to your rate when you are rowing the 1x, not what you've experienced in an 8+. That being said, I guess my only message is don't lower yourself to John's or Rich's standards to make a shaky point. As you said, your signature line does the talking for you.

Thanks for bring me back to ground here. Good point about the 8 vs the 1x as it applies to rate.

The truth of the matter is I can scull in the single at higher rates. The reality of the situation is: Why bother?
I'm going faster than my cohorts.
I stand by my assertion that there is an optimum rate for older people in the single and on the erg and it is lower than elite 4- rowers in their 30's.



20 x20 hindsight: There's no need to respond to troll statements. Rupp is just chain jerking. He succeeded in getting a rise out of me.



But enough of this... This is the "Training" thread for the erg. I digress.

Historically, the erg was created for OTW rowers to use in the cold months. This has changed now. The main thing people have to decide is whether they care about having form that doesn't make the erg jump all over the floor..

Watch a Joan Van Blom row the erg. She's in a class by herself on the erg (2 current WRs). She rows beautifully with form that is transportable to the water where she continues to dominate.
Now... watch a Richard Cureton (no current WRs). He, also, is in a class by himself. Not quite as dominant (Brook is better in the age/wt group)... To be fair, though: He's great in the confines of a gymnasium... But the form does not transport to the water... No "raising of the rate" will make a difference on the water.

I ask, then: Why row poorly even if it makes you fast OFF the water?
Low rate training will help you make a difference with this.
A cardio-junkie will say to himself: "I just cover up by getting myself so fit that my form won't make a difference."
This DOES work inside a gym (not on the water)...

Postscript
Looking to the future:

C2 has developed a new erg. I've demo'ed it. It is more like rowing on the water. It defeats gym-rat technique..
Hmmm.... I wonder why the Dreissigackers want to do that?

[ausrwr]

John, how can we illustrate this to you?

Ebbesen, Luini, Stephansen, Drysdale, Campbell, Cop, Grainger, Karsten, van Eupen et al do not do all their training at high rates, or at necessarily high power.
Wilson Kipketer didn't run every meter he ran in training at 1:41/800m pace.
Michael Phelps doesn't swim every hundred at 48 seconds.

Low rate and lower intensity training is directed for many reasons. Neuromuscular recruitment, developing strength, cardio development, ability to recover, all that sort of thing.

For erging, this all makes a lot of sense. You're a runner. Think of Peter Snell. Ran hundred plus miles a week through his preparation, then added in some speedwork - not a massive amount. That didn't stop him from being the fastest miler in the world, did it?

My personal perspective: When I train in the single, I do most of my miles r16 or so, at a fairly light intensity. I use it to do longer sessions, to nail in my stroke, and to keep my lactate levels very low and to be able to back up again later in the day. I do the same thing on the ergo at r18. A few weeks of intensity before major races - pieces from 90 seconds up to 8 minutes at higher rates - is all that's needed to get the rate up.

In a single I'll come down the course at 32-34, in a pair at 34+, and up from there. Much like Mike's experience.

[mikvan52]

Low rate and lower intensity training is directed for many reasons. Neuromuscular recruitment, developing strength, cardio development, ability to recover, all that sort of thing.



My personal perspective: When I train in the single, I do most of my miles r16 or so, at a fairly light intensity. I use it to do longer sessions, to nail in my stroke, and to keep my lactate levels very low and to be able to back up again later in the day. I do the same thing on the ergo at r18. A few weeks of intensity before major races - pieces from 90 seconds up to 8 minutes at higher rates - is all that's needed to get the rate up.

In a single I'll come down the course at 32-34, in a pair at 34+, and up from there. Much like Mike's experience.

Thanks for sharing this.

It is rare for people to go under 7:00 in a 1x OTW.
Very impressive.

On another subject: Older people are not as likely to be able to do "2-a-days"....
But the work intensities can be split up in the same percentages as you discuss.... with many meters at low rates and low pressure.

I am amazed by how much posturing goes on this site => with people coming on contending that most of their meters NEED to be done fast and at high rates... Very puzzling. Why do it if it's unnecessary? It may work well... but it's unnecessary. (Did I say it's unneccessary? )

[philwhite7]

Thanks to Mike and Alister for their expertise, as always.

John, I don't think anyone's trying to attack you here - the forum is a place for healthy debate, and you're entitled to your opinion. It's just that Mike and Alister's OTW and erging experience gives them a different viewpoint based on their years of experience. Let's not drag this thread down the dark, antagonistic road of some of the anti-Ranger threads, for the good of all concerned!

I would say that the slower, low rate pieces auswr got me on are working to great effect. I'm a younger erger who's looking to get into OTW once my kids are older (when I'll hopefully have more free time). So only time will tell how these distance pieces will influence OTW results, but I've knocked considerable chunks of time off my 2k, 5k and 10K PBs since beginning to include the type of piece Mike is describing and that auswr advocates. Again, that's just my experience.

C2 has developed a new erg. I've demo'ed it. It is more like rowing on the water. It defeats gym-rat technique..
Hmmm.... I wonder why the Dreissigackers want to do that?

Can you give us any more info on this Mike, such as release dates? Probably not due to some sort of confidentiality agreement, but I just thought I'd ask!

Thanks,

Phil

[bloomp]

C2 has developed a new erg. I've demo'ed it. It is more like rowing on the water. It defeats gym-rat technique..
Hmmm.... I wonder why the Dreissigackers want to do that?

Can you give us any more info on this Mike, such as release dates? Probably not due to some sort of confidentiality agreement, but I just thought I'd ask!

Thanks,

Phil

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=10229

They had one demo version at Head of the Charles, and a newer one at CRASH-B's. I tried the latter.

[mikvan52]

I'm not sure what C2's plans are about any further action with their new model..
NavigationHazard and I tried it at the same time at registration for CRASH-B in February.

It slides and is a shorter unit.
The feel is far less abrupt at the catch. I liked it but didn't inspect it very thoroughly...

Will try to find a photo...