Rowperfect vs Concept2 Research Article

[jliddil]

Significant influence of the design of the rowing ergometer on elite athlete kinematics

Full text free here:

http://journals.pepublishing.com/conten ... d2220&pi=9

[Rockin Roland]

We don't need scientific research to tell us whether C2 ergs cause more injuries than the old Rowperfect ergs(which were used in the tests).

A 5 minute row on the new Rowperfect is all you need to notice how much easier on the body it is than a C2 erg(regardless if slides are used). Yet the same muscles are getting the workout.

How many of you walk around stiff and hunched over immediately after a solid workout on a C2 erg?
How many of you develope sore shoulders, ribs and forearms after extended use of C2 ergs?
And how many of you end up with a sore butt after only half an hour on a C2 erg?

I know I certainly frequently experienced the above during my 25 years or more of solid workouts on C2 ergs.
Not anymore since I recently sold my C2 erg and purchased a new Rowperfect. I don't want to make this sound like a testimonial as I have no interest in how many ergs Rowperfect end up selling. All I know is that my body is feeling a whole lot better since getting rid of my C2 erg. Gone is that harsh jolt that is sent through my whole body when the handle loads up at the catch. The Slides that I used for the last two years did little to eliminate that feeling.

This morning I had some tough sessions on the water and came home feeling tired and sore. This afternoon I still felt a bit stiff in the body but decided to do a moderate paced 30 minute workout on my Rowperfect erg. It was the perfect therapeutic remedy for my sore muscles. I couldn't believe how flexible and relieved my muscles felt afterwards. And I have never ever walked away hunched over after using my Rowperfect.

As there are millions of C2 ergs out there and probably only a few hundred new Rowperfects nothing is going to change soon. Although I still use a C2 erg on slides at the rowing club I would never consider getting onto a fixed C2 erg again.

[slwiser]

I find it interesting that you talked so much about how much the erg causes soreness and stiffness only to have you also note how much soreness and stiffness you came away from the OTW row with. Sounds like a testimonial to the similarity between your OTW and erg (C2) experiences to me. I hope this does not seem to much like it sounds to me (harsh) but I just had to make the comparison or restate the obvious.

[jliddil]

We don't need scientific research to tell us whether C2 ergs cause more injuries than the old Rowperfect ergs(which were used in the tests).
I know I certainly frequently experienced the above during my 25 years or more of solid workouts on C2 ergs.

OK did you read the article? It really comes to no clear conclusions about either device.

"The relevance of this to injury requires further exploration, perhaps through mathematical models of the rowing action. These mixed results possibly suggest that any differences in the systems may relate to rower preference and desired training effect."

And you even say there are millions of C2s out there and a few hundred Rowperfects. Thus you can not draw any meaningful conclusions about injury rates since there are not data to support your statements. You own anecdotal evidence (N=1) does not make it so.

In twenty five years of running I was (and when I do now) often sore after hard workouts. Same with biking. Hard exercise will make you hurt. You say yourself OTW rowing is tough.

Never used a Rowperfect and maybe they are really great. But the company is really poor at marketing. The website needs updating. No manual is available. When I finally got a PDF version it was dated 2006 and talked about DOS for the computer. It's 2010. If you are going to sell a product, like it or not, you have to market properly. There is no forum for users.

The manual makes me wonder (I know it might be for the older version but it's what they sent me) about maintenance and parts replacement. And I have to ask why they can't produce an updated manual with out comments like "picture goes here". Again they are not going to gt customers by looking like a fly by might company in a world wide economy.

Do people get injured using ergs. You bet. Is the rate of ALL injuries on one less than the other? I don't think we have any data to make firm conclusions. I will say that you can really screw you back up on a 2 with poor technique. Same goes for weight training.

[Rockin Roland]

I find it interesting that you talked so much about how much the erg causes soreness and stiffness only to have you also note how much soreness and stiffness you came away from the OTW row with. Sounds like a testimonial to the similarity between your OTW and erg (C2) experiences to me. I hope this does not seem to much like it sounds to me (harsh) but I just had to make the comparison or restate the obvious.

Clearly my over 25 years rowing & erging experience isn't enough to specifically determine what consistantly developes muscle soreness.

[Rockin Roland]

OK did you read the article? It really comes to no clear conclusions about either device.

And you even say there are millions of C2s out there and a few hundred Rowperfects. Thus you can not draw any meaningful conclusions about injury rates since there are not data to support your statements. You own anecdotal evidence (N=1) does not make it so.

Never used a Rowperfect and maybe they are really great. But the company is really poor at marketing. The website needs updating. No manual is available. When I finally got a PDF version it was dated 2006 and talked about DOS for the computer. It's 2010. If you are going to sell a product, like it or not, you have to market properly. There is no forum for users.

Again they are not going to gt customers by looking like a fly by might company in a world wide economy.

Do people get injured using ergs. I don't think we have any data to make firm conclusions.

I have actually read the article and many of the articles listed as references. You may not be aware but as a result of the high number of injuries to elite rowers here in Oz all national selection is now done on slides to discourage fixed erg use. This decision came out of a national coaching conference and also involves a desire to involve more technical ability when doing seat racing. There was something published in rowing media at the time.

My claim that the Rowperfect erg is no where near as hard on the body as a C2 erg doesn't require any scientific study to substantiate it. Mind you the old Rowperfect used in previous studies doesn't have all the injury prevention features in it like the current model. Anyone who spends time on both C2 and current Rowperfect ergs will immediately notice the difference. Until you try one yourself I'm afraid that my argument will fall on deaf ears.

Your criticism of Rowperfects' website and marketing is an uninformed view. I'm told that currently every Rowperfect that rolls off the production line is spoken for. There is simply no need for them to advertise or market their product if they cant produce units fast enough to fill pre-ordered units. I asked them about the out of date website and they said that at the moment they prefer to have a low profile to avoid being flooded with orders that they can't all fill. I will be receiving a comprehensive manual shortly but in the meantime customers like myself have several loose pages of information to work off.

I have no regret in purchasing my Rowperfect and thought about it and tested the Oartec Slider several times before making my decision on the Rowperfect. I don't see anything coming out of C2 soon that can do anything better than these two.

[JRBJR]

There are several discussons now underway on the Rowing Illustated board on this topic (the merits/demerits of the C2 vs. the two new dyamic ergs). One poster who waited months for an Oartec Slider finally received it a few weeks ago, tried it, raved about its awesome construction and performance, then announced he has decided to convert his C2 Model D to a dynamic erg and would be selling his new Oartec Slider. Confusing, to say the least.

I used to notice some lower and upper back stiffness after a long workout on my static Model C, so I invested in slides. Granted, they take up about 12 feet x 2.5 feet on my workout room floor, but I'm one of the fortunate few who has the required floor space that most don't. And I love the Model C on slides. Much smoother, without any apparent post-workout strain or discomfort, even after a paricularly long and strenuous workout. I can't locate a new RowPerfect in the contintental US and so can't confirm that the RowPerfect in fact provides a superior and less risky workout than a C2 erg on slides. I'm looking forward to C2's progress with their own slide-less dynamic erg. And I don't know how anyone can claim the new RowPerfect is already superior to C2's dynamic erg when the final version of the C2 hasn't yet yet been completed or made available to the public.

Yes, I do keep hearing good things about the new RowPerfect here and elsewhere, but even those who love it admit that some of the factory drilled holes and fittings are improperly placed and need to be re-done by the buyer. If you watch the latest RowPerfect demo videos on youtube, you'll probably notice the rather loud low-frequency siren-like wail of its flywheel, somewhat like a badly maintained Model B. Still, I might be inclined to invest the $3000 plus to buy new RowPerfect if I lived near the manufacturing plant in Australia and could get a good pre-purchase test session and then longterm and quick access to company experts for attention to post-purchase problems and upgrades. As has already been mentioned here, RowPerfect has a terrible record of advertising, marketing, and supporting their ergs on even a small scale. C2, on the other hand, has a long and well-proven record of excellent service and support on a global level. I intend to wait for C2's dynamic erg entry before I take the risk of buying a RowPerfect from a company that is twenty years behind C2 in largescale business and customer service experience.

[Tinus]

My claim that the Rowperfect erg is no where near as hard on the body as a C2 erg doesn't require any scientific study to substantiate it.

Not only claiming that the rowperfect is better (which might very well be true) but also that it doesn't need (reasonable/scientific/solid/whatever) prove in order to claim it is better (which is absurd). Do you really want to go there? Why not just use real arguments to contradict the whole stuff. Or do you also claim to be god...

[jliddil]

My claim that the Rowperfect erg is no where near as hard on the body as a C2 erg doesn't require any scientific study to substantiate it.

Not only claiming that the rowperfect is better (which might very well be true) but also that it doesn't need (reasonable/scientific/solid/whatever) prove in order to claim it is better (which is absurd). Do you really want to go there? Why not just use real arguments to contradict the whole stuff. Or do you also claim to be god...

Who needs science and hard evidence? Next you are going to tell me dowsing rods don't work.

[Rockin Roland]

My claim that the Rowperfect erg is no where near as hard on the body as a C2 erg doesn't require any scientific study to substantiate it.

Not only claiming that the rowperfect is better (which might very well be true) but also that it doesn't need (reasonable/scientific/solid/whatever) prove in order to claim it is better (which is absurd). Do you really want to go there? Why not just use real arguments to contradict the whole stuff. Or do you also claim to be god...

It's such a shame if you have to rely on others (such as scientific evidence) to make a judgement on something. If that's your criteria for making a purchase then you'll miss out on so many good things in life.

The proof is in the pudding mate. You have to go out there and try them yourself and make your own decision. That's what I did. The sun doesn't shine only on C2 products.

At the head of the charles regatta in Boston all three dynamic ergs were available for people to try. It is possible that C2 might eventually come out with something better than these two ergs. But through my repeated demos on these ergs I believe I've made the right decision. I don't need a scientist to tell me which one to buy. I'm capable enough to make up my own mind thank you.

[Tinus]

My claim that the Rowperfect erg is no where near as hard on the body as a C2 erg doesn't require any scientific study to substantiate it.

Not only claiming that the rowperfect is better (which might very well be true) but also that it doesn't need (reasonable/scientific/solid/whatever) prove in order to claim it is better (which is absurd). Do you really want to go there? Why not just use real arguments to contradict the whole stuff. Or do you also claim to be god...

It's such a shame if you have to rely on others (such as scientific evidence) to make a judgement on something. If that's your criteria for making a purchase then you'll miss out on so many good things in life.

The proof is in the pudding mate. You have to go out there and try them yourself and make your own decision. That's what I did. The sun doesn't shine only on C2 products.

At the head of the charles regatta in Boston all three dynamic ergs were available for people to try. It is possible that C2 might eventually come out with something better than these two ergs. But through my repeated demos on these ergs I believe I've made the right decision. I don't need a scientist to tell me which one to buy. I'm capable enough to make up my own mind thank you.

Ok, sure. Very intelligent argument. It feels better so it is better. Case closed.

[Rockin Roland]

Ok, sure. Very intelligent argument. It feels better so it is better. Case closed.

Evaluating a product and drawing on over 25 years experience to make a careful decision is not "It feels better so it is better".

However in your case, if you don't have the experience, then the decision is a lot more difficult. I find that in many studies scientists don't like to back one particular brand over another (unless they mysteriously receive a brown paper bag full of cash) and prefer to "sit on the fence".

[hjs]

Ok, sure. Very intelligent argument. It feels better so it is better. Case closed.

Evaluating a product and drawing on over 25 years experience to make a careful decision is not "It feels better so it is better".

However in your case, if you don't have the experience, then the decision is a lot more difficult. I find that in many studies scientists don't like to back one particular brand over another (unless they mysteriously receive a brown paper bag full of cash) and prefer to "sit on the fence".

Isn,t the price also a big factor? A concept 2 is relative cheap.

[Tinus]

Ok, sure. Very intelligent argument. It feels better so it is better. Case closed.

Evaluating a product and drawing on over 25 years experience to make a careful decision is not "It feels better so it is better".

So we agree there is no reason but only experience. The same kind of experience which makes many people feel supported in a wide range of urban legends.

"Even if we grant by way of concession that there neither is nor was nor will
be anyone cleverer than this hypothetical clever person, even so it is not
right to find him convincing. For clever people, when try to establish
something, are especially prone to champion what is unsound and make it seem
sound and true."

Sextus Empiricus, Outlines of scepticism II 42.

[jliddil]

Ok, sure. Very intelligent argument. It feels better so it is better. Case closed.

Evaluating a product and drawing on over 25 years experience to make a careful decision is not "It feels better so it is better".

So we agree there is no reason but only experience. The same kind of experience which makes many people feel supported in a wide range of urban legends.

"Even if we grant by way of concession that there neither is nor was nor will
be anyone cleverer than this hypothetical clever person, even so it is not
right to find him convincing. For clever people, when try to establish
something, are especially prone to champion what is unsound and make it seem
sound and true."

Sextus Empiricus, Outlines of scepticism II 42.

Or this:
http://www.skeptic.com/about_us/manifesto.html