The Two Types of Training

[KevJGK]

I have not yet done hard distance rowing, distance trials, and sharpening, which (I would suspect) give me about 20 seconds over 2K.

No disrespect, but I suspect that what you suspect is incorrect.

Enjoy your results for what they are: fabulous achievements for which you should be very proud.

End of!

[ranger]

You have very little chance of breaking 6:40

Not sure what you are talking about, Kev.

The 6:41 2K I pulled this year was at max drag, half trained.

I have not yet done hard distance rowing, distance trials, and sharpening, which (I would suspect) give me about 20 seconds over 2K.

2Ks aren't UT rows.

To do your best you need to prepare for them.

Do you do your best 2Ks without hard distance rowing, distance trials, or sharpening--without any anaerobic training?

If so, are you suggesting that I truncate my training for 2K because you do?

That's not very likely.

I also wonder about your lack for respect for my lwt 6:41 at 59.

This next year, it looks as though no other 55s lwts will have much chance of breaking 6:50, and only two other 50s lwts pulled better than 6:41, one the WR-holder.

That's not a bad row, given the circumstances (that I was only half-trained).

RANKING RESULTS 2010

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Ages 50-59 | Current 2010 Season

1 Paul Siebach 51 Oakton VA USA 6:31.2 RACE
2 Brian O'Neill 50 GBR 6:38.0 RACE
3 Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.4 RACE
4 Steven Geary 52 Invercargill South Island NZL 6:42.1 RACE
5 Bernhard Köhler 51 GER 6:45.3 RACE
6 Mouss Hammachi 51 Ufas FRA 6:45.7 IND
7 Michael van Beuren 57 Hartland VT USA 6:47.6 IND_V
8 Paul Wenham 54 Holbeck GBR 6:47.8 RACE
8 David Hosking 54 London GBR 6:47.8 IND
10 David Hislop 53 Castle Kennedy GBR 6:52.0 RACE

Here's where you are, and you are only 51.

Unless you do something _very_ unusual in your training, as I have, by the time you are 59, because of physical decline, the prediction is that you will be 15 seconds slower.

RANKING RESULTS 2010

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | All Weight Classes | Ages 50-59 | 2010 Season

1 Michele Marullo 51 ITA 6:11.3 RACE
Michele Marullo 50 Roma ITA 6:11.3 IND
2 David Gray 50 apo OT USA 6:13.1 RACE
2 Dave Gray 50 APO AE USA 6:13.1 IND
4 Chris Ives 50 New York NY USA 6:17.2 RACE
5 Steve Krum 55 Manhattan Beach CA USA 6:18.5 IND_V
6 Sergio Botti 50 Prosport Trento - Italy OT ITA 6:24.2 RACE
7 Marcus Harvey 50 GBR 6:24.4 RACE
8 Jã¸rgen Bloch 50 Kã¸benhavns Vestegns Politi GBR 6:24.5 RACE
8 Jørgen Bloch 50 Brøndby Free Spirits DEN 6:24.5 IND
10 Marcus Harvey 50 GBR 6:25.9 RACE
11 Jonathan Bone 54 New York NY USA 6:26.2 IND
12 Sergio Botti 50 Prosport Trento - Italy ITA 6:26.7 RACE
13 Mel LaForme 57 USA 6:28.4 RACE
14 Richard Cheeseman 51 Sub 7 IRC Sub7 IRC GBR 6:29.4 IND_V
15 Nick Rockliff 52 Tadcaster Nth Yorkshire GBR 6:29.9 IND
16 Alexander Chin 53 USA 6:30.0 RACE
17 Walter Updegrave 57 New Rochelle NY USA 6:30.1 RACE
18 george perrin 57 Runcorn GBR 6:30.2 IND
19 Paul Siebach 51 Oakton VA USA 6:31.2 RACE
20 Tore Foss 57 NOR 6:31.5 RACE
21 Joe Glickman 50 Brooklyn NY USA 6:32.1 RACE
22 Andrew Cleary 51 AUS 6:33.4 RACE
23 Alex Pond 51 Mississauga Ontario CAN 6:33.7 IND
24 Larry O'Toole 59 Andover MA USA 6:34.7 RACE
24 Larry Tait 53 Montreal QC CAN 6:34.7 RACE
26 Francis Garcia 54 Bayonne Sn FRA 6:34.8 RACE
27 John Mcavoy 54 Sheffield GBR 6:35.3 RACE
28 George Perrin 57 Runcorn GBR 6:35.4 RACE
28 Joe Greco 57 S. Burlington VT USA 6:35.4 IND_V
30 John Ryan 51 North Attleboro MA USA 6:36.6 RACE
31 John Hayes 50 Stapleford GBR 6:36.7 RACE
32 Thomas Hornick 52 Shaker Heights OH USA 6:37.2 IND
33 ola hjorth 52 oslo NOR 6:37.5 IND
34 Brian O'Neill 50 GBR 6:38.0 RACE
35 Bruce Rolfe 52 Kirkland WA USA 6:38.1 RACE
36 cory logan 50 houston tx USA 6:38.2 IND
37 John Randle 52 Brookline MA USA 6:38.6 IND
38 Jacob Lindegaard 50 Aarhus DEN 6:38.9 IND
39 Zbigniew Andruszkiewicz 50 Oslo NOR 6:39.2 IND_V
40 Joergen Bloch 50 Broendby OT DEN 6:39.3 RACE
40 Mike Linehan 53 Reading GBR 6:39.3 IND
42 Frans van der Steen 51 Buitenpost Friesland NLD 6:39.9 IND
43 Robert Dean 51 David Lloyd Birmingham GBR 6:41.2 RACE
43 Gary Dakin 53 Nottingham GBR 6:41.2 IND
43 Paul Lambert 51 Bellevue WA USA 6:41.2 IND
46 Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.4 RACE
47 Jørgen Jensen 56 Lemvig DEN 6:41.7 IND
48 Steven Geary 52 Invercargill South Island NZL 6:42.1 RACE
49 PATRICK DUBOIS 56 MELUN VULAINES SUR SEINE FRA 6:42.4 IND
50 Graham Price 50 Newark RC GBR 6:42.6 RACE
51 Patrick Dubois 56 Melun Cn FRA 6:42.8 RACE
52 Glyn Reed 53 Peterborough City RC GBR 6:42.9 RACE
52 Johan Bielderman 56 Maasdam NLD 6:42.9 IND
52 John Stroud 55 Folsom CA USA 6:42.9 IND
55 Curt Kaufmann 59 Philadelphia PA USA 6:43.0 IND
56 Steve Roedde 55 Richards Landing ON CAN 6:43.1 RACE
57 Peter Sanger 55 werribee v AUS 6:43.3 RACE
57 Bill Tantillo 50 San Jose Ca USA 6:43.3 IND
59 Peter Aberle 50 AUS 6:43.4 RACE
60 Dave Lukasik 50 Maitland FL USA 6:43.9 RACE
61 Cary Doyle 50 Kunkletown PA USA 6:44.0 RACE
61 Paul Winton 53 RN IRC GBR 6:44.0 RACE
61 Neil Barnard 52 London GBR 6:44.0 IND
61 Ross Poole 54 Goulds, NL. CAN 6:44.0 IND
65 larry crowley 57 vancouver BC CAN 6:44.1 IND
66 Patrick Martin 54 Ba 123 Orleans FRA 6:44.4 RACE
66 Dave Frost 56 San Diego CA USA 6:44.4 IND
66 Patrick MARTIN 54 BA 123, ORLEANS BRICY FRA 6:44.4 IND
69 Paul Winton 53 GBR 6:44.5 RACE
69 Madis Lohmus 56 Tallinn - EST 6:44.5 IND
71 Milos Hunek 51 VK Smichov Prague GBR 6:45.2 IND
72 Bernhard Köhler 51 GER 6:45.3 RACE
73 Johan Denekamp 50 London GBR 6:45.6 IND
74 Mouss Hammachi 51 Ufas FRA 6:45.7 IND
75 Patrick Capdeville 54 Csa 402 Ra FRA 6:45.9 RACE
75 David Kidd 57 USA 6:45.9 RACE
77 York Langerfeld 57 Parksville B.C. CAN 6:46.1 IND
78 Noel Read 54 Melbourne AUS 6:46.7 RACE
79 Jan Østengen 55 Nittedal NOR 6:46.9 IND
80 Inge Lindseth 52 Trondheim N NOR 6:47.3 IND
81 Michael van Beuren 57 Hartland VT USA 6:47.6 IND_V
82 Paul Wenham 54 Holbeck GBR 6:47.8 RACE
82 David Hosking 54 London GBR 6:47.8 IND
84 Paul Flack 53 Weston MA USA 6:47.9 IND
85 Derek Mullooly 55 Rotorua Wanganui NZL 6:48.0 RACE
86 Bruno Toumeyragues 50 FRA 6:48.2 RACE
86 Greg Williams 59 Lake Stevens WA USA 6:48.2 RACE
86 bruno toumeyragues 50 grenoble FRA 6:48.2 IND
89 Richie Travers 56 topsfield MA USA 6:48.3 RACE
90 Christopher Lenton 59 Marlow Bucks GBR 6:48.7 IND
91 Philip Roesel 50 Statesboro GA USA 6:48.8 RowPro
92 Peter Dreissigacker 58 Morrisville VT USA 6:48.9 RACE
93 Tiff Wood 57 Portland OR USA 6:49.2 IND
94 Rod Chinn 52 Sub7 IRC Sub 7 irc GBR 6:49.5 IND
95 John Mottram 57 Xpress Cambridge GBR 6:49.7 RACE
96 Robert Harrison 53 Napier HB NZL 6:50.0 IND
97 Stephen Wade 56 Olympia WA USA 6:50.4 RACE
98 Greg Love 52 Arlington VA USA 6:50.7 RACE
99 Charley Kanieski 56 Port Townsend WA USA 6:50.9 RACE
100 Tom Cattell 55 Falmouth ME USA 6:51.1 RACE
101 Mike McDevitt 50 Somers Point NJ USA 6:51.3 IND
102 Richard Steventon 57 Shrewsbury Shropshire GBR 6:51.4 C2Log
103 Scott Pape 51 Simsbury CT USA 6:51.6 IND
104 Mike O'Dell 50 Milton Keynes Free Spirits IRC GBR 6:51.7 IND
105 Raymond Griggs 51 Woodbridge VA USA 6:52.0 RACE
105 David Hislop 53 Castle Kennedy GBR 6:52.0 RACE
105 Ray Griggs 51 Woodbridge VA USA 6:52.0 IND
105 Simon McKie 53 Rudge, Somersetshire Sub 7-IRC Somersetshire GBR 6:52.0 IND
109 Gary Light 50 East Greenwich RI USA 6:52.1 RACE
110 Gerry Falconer 52 Hollywood FL USA 6:52.3 RACE
110 Jonathan Rich 56 Winter Park FL USA 6:52.3 RACE
112 Tony Perez 52 Toulon Av FRA 6:52.4 RACE
113 Charles Bahr 51 Murray Hill NJ USA 6:52.5 IND
114 Mark Shupe 53 Medina OH USA 6:52.9 IND
115 gerrit wansink 51 schalkhaar nl NLD 6:53.1 IND
116 Greg Trahar 51 Eltham, London GBR 6:53.2 IND_V
116 Bill Riddick 52 Ottawa ON CAN 6:53.2 IND
118 Edward Ford 57 cambridge MA USA 6:53.5 RACE
118 Steve Schmitt 50 Falls Church VA USA 6:53.5 RACE
120 Tom Lieb 55 St. Louis MO USA 6:53.8 IND
121 Patrick Hamner 54 Dallas TX USA 6:53.9 IND
121 Herb Tarbous 51 Piscataway NJ USA 6:53.9 IND
123 Alain Doriath 51 FRA 6:54.0 RACE
123 Onno Hofman 50 Naarden NLD 6:54.0 IND
125 Michael Breard 55 Corte Madera CA USA 6:54.2 IND
126 Harry Edenfield 53 Jacksonville FL USA 6:54.6 RACE
127 John Powell 55 West Hartford CT USA 6:54.7 IND
128 Eric Boyer 54 Paris Aspp FRA 6:55.1 RACE
128 Michael Slavin 50 CA USA 6:55.1 RACE
130 Tony Courtney 56 Nuneaton GBR 6:55.2 IND_V
131 Francois Degrange 53 Lyon Sp - Chemin De Fred FRA 6:55.3 RACE
131 Kevin Thompson 54 Aurora ON CAN 6:55.3 IND
133 Roger Brown 53 Belmont MA USA 6:55.4 RACE
134 Peter Janholt 50 AUS 6:55.7 RACE
134 alan wisniewski 57 Seaford Free Spirits GBR 6:55.7 IND
136 Ernie Parizeau 52 Wellesley MA USA 6:55.8 RACE
137 Martin Baltus 55 Miri Sarawak, Malaysia NLD 6:56.0 IND
137 Eric Lenz 51 Pleasanton Ca USA 6:56.0 IND
139 Don Lewis 50 Canton MA USA 6:56.1 RACE
140 William Nugent 51 melbourne AUS 6:56.2 RACE
140 Rob Thomas 50 Bournemouth GBR 6:56.2 RACE
140 Don Rickers 53 St.Catharines CAN 6:56.2 IND
143 Tony Granger 52 Naples FL USA 6:56.3 RACE
143 Marc Livingstone 50 GBR 6:56.3 RACE
143 J Rampling 51 Phoenix IRC GBR 6:56.3 RACE
143 Don Mann 52 Williamsburg Va USA 6:56.3 IND
147 John Sisk 53 Brookline MA USA 6:56.4 C2Log
147 Paul Woehrle 51 Delta BC CAN 6:56.4 IND
149 Al Flanders 58 Watertown MA USA 6:56.6 RACE
150 Armando Chavez 54 Weston FL USA 6:56.8 RACE
150 Phil Wendler 57 sudbury MA USA 6:56.8 RACE
152 Ray Bigauskas 59 Victoria BC CAN 6:57.2 IND
153 John Olliff 50 AUS 6:57.4 RACE
154 Lindsay Hay 57 Sydney NSW GBR 6:57.5 IND
155 Kirby Howell 52 USA 6:58.1 RACE
155 Kim McKnight 55 Ithaca NY USA 6:58.1 RACE
155 John Rushworth 55 Cheltenham Glos GBR 6:58.1 IND
158 Edward Chuchla 50 USA 6:58.2 RACE
158 Tom Swanson 52 Port Angeles WA USA 6:58.2 IND
160 Joe Labonte 54 Memphis TN USA 6:58.3 C2Log
161 Valdis Meikalish(ss) 52 Riga LV LVA 6:58.5 C2Log
162 Colin Barnard 50 Rex GBR 6:58.6 RACE
163 David Wylie 50 GBR 6:58.7 RACE
164 Michael Feszczak 55 Adelaide SA AUS 6:58.8 IND
165 Will Boylan 50 Roanoke VA USA 6:59.0 IND
165 andros maoudis 52 shrewsbury GBR 6:59.0 IND
165 Stuart Wright 51 Nelson NZL 6:59.0 IND
168 Kurt Beckman 51 Hollywood FL USA 6:59.1 RACE
168 Michael Van Der Linden 51 Mt Gambier SA AUS 6:59.1 IND_V
168 Frederic Dickie 54 Windham NH USA 6:59.1 IND
171 John ( Spike) Allen 52 Derbyshire Police GBR 6:59.2 RACE
172 Robert Sack 50 Burnt Hills NY USA 6:59.3 RACE
172 Thomas Friel 50 Amherst NH USA 6:59.3 IND
172 Jean-Pierre GORIN 52 Ufas UFAS FRA 6:59.3 IND
172 D Wiklander 51 Roslagen Postroddare Rote 87 RK SWE 6:59.3 IND
176 David Baker 53 Shrewsbury MA USA 6:59.5 RACE
176 Kevin Spencer 51 Bristol GBR 6:59.5 RACE

ranger

[ranger]

No disrespect, but I suspect that what you suspect is incorrect.

Baseless suspicion is respectful?

Interesting world you live in.

Are you normally suspicious of the motives and goals of those much more accomplished than you in things that you don't understand and have no experience with?

If so, why?

ranger

[KevJGK]

Baseless suspicion is respectful?

It's hardly baseless Rich.

[ranger]

Baseless suspicion is respectful?

It's hardly baseless Rich.

Really?

What is the basis, then?

For someone who doesn't know how to row and therefore rows ineffectively and inefficiently, you don't think that 50 million meters of diligent training on these technical weaknesses can yield an improvement of a dozen seconds over 2K?

Why?

ranger

[ranger]

[removed]

[ranger]

Kevin--

Have you ever considered coaching?

As a coach, you could try out your ideas about human psychology.

You could see whether discouraging your athletes, day-after-day, somehow, perversely, might spur them on to achieve their goals.

I don't think that this has ever been tried before, but it might work.

What do you think?

Is that what you spurs you on to try harder, do better, etc.?

Discouragement?

ranger

[hjs]

I do think it'd be quite amusing to let the Prof fester in his own bullshit. Anyone else up for it?

I think everyone else has already signed off on this thread so if your last to leave can you please shut the door and turn off the lights.

Please do..............

[PaulH]

Checking in to see how ranger did with his April extravaganza of PBs. Astonishingly he couldn't even row 500m continuously at a respectable pace. So I shall join the exodus, and tune in again to see how he does at BIRC. Thanks everyone, it's been, um, fun?

[ranger]

Since my standard session on the erg is a HM, I want to row 28 spm most of the time, and that's what I am now doing, just naturally.

I now have a beautifully relaxed stroke, 1:45 @ 28 spm, right on my target pace for a HM.

So my everyday rowing is now pretty set.

I just need to keep at it until the HM @ 1:45 happens, just naturally.

This sort of extended threshold rowing makes you feel great.

It is my favorite session for day-to-day rowing.

When I first took up rowing, this is all I did.

As far as training for a 2K goes, other types of rowing are just prelude and postlude to this kind of session.

It is on this type of session that your rowing lives or dies.

Your 2K is only as good as you 60min/HM row @ 10 MPS.

A HM @ 1:45 predicts a 1:34/6:16 2K.

A HM is done at 2K + 11.

ranger

[ranger]

I continue to think that the difference between a quality 20s lightweight and a quality 60s lightweight is just stroking power.

The difference is about 2.5 SPI, 9 SPI vs. 11.5 SPI.

In a 60min row, this comes out to be a difference of a mile, 10 seconds per 500m, 1500m.

On an everyday 60min row, say, at 26 spm, 60s lightweights will usually do something like 1:56.

20s lightweights will do 1:46.

So, as a 60s lightweight, if you want to row like a 20s lightweight, you just need to get used to pulling naturally at 11.5 SPI rather than 9 SPI.

For any lightweight, 26 spm is comfortable rate for a 60min row, if you are just pulling naturally.

I have no problem with this now.

1:46 @ 26 spm is a natural stroke for me.

I will be 60 years old in nine months.

If you pull at 9 SPI, you have to rate 32-33 spm in order to go 1:46.

These are race rates and so, in terms of effort, TR rather than UT1.

The difference between a quality 20s lightweight and a quality 60s lightweight, then, is 2 training bands.

What the quality 20s lightweight does at UT1, the quaity 60s lightweight does at TR.

The 60s lwt 2K at WIRC 2010 was won in 1:46.

For a 60s lightweight, 1:46 is 2K hammer pace.

ranger

[ranger]

16:33.6 (5k), 20:04.1 (6k), 34:22.2 (10k), 74:36.5 (HM), 8762m (30min), 17116m (60min), 2h37m57.6s (FM)

In terms of distance rowing, give or take a bit, here and there, my goals are in line with Pete Marston's pbs.

Pete is 31 years old and 87 kgs.

We are both 5'11"

Pete lists his 2K pb at 6:11, but that was quite a while ago.

He has gotten quite a bit worse since then.

This year, Pete pulled 6:18.5 at BIRC and 6:21.2 at WIRC.

Given the normal decline with age of about a second a year over 2K, if Pete continues to train as he does now, the prediction is that, for 2K, he will pull in the 6:30s when he is in his 40s, the 6:40s when he is in his 50s, and the 6:50s when he is in his 60s.

These times are consistently 10 seconds off the best lightweights his age, 30 seconds off the best heavyweights.

ranger

[JimR]

It seems that people have figured out the emperor has no clothes ...

JimR

[leadville]

It seems that people have figured out the emperor has no clothes ...

JimR

that, and he's an obnoxious, ill-informed, lying embarrassment to himself who should be relegated to a trolls-only thread.

good to see the lack of non-rangerboy posts here. Let him swim in his own sewage.

[ranger]

It seems that people have figured out the emperor has no clothes ...

JimR

For this last year, over 2K, no clothes but these, done without hard distance rowing, distance trials, or sharpening:

1 Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.4 RACE
2 Hugh Pite 65 Sidney BC CAN 7:02.7 RACE
3 Robert Lakin 61 Wichita KS USA 7:03.6 RACE
4 gregory brock 62 santa cruz ca USA 7:03.9 IND
5 Rolf Meek 59 Oslo NOR 7:05.4 IND
6 Jerry Lawson 62 USA 7:06.0 RACE
6 Gerald Lawson 62 Winona MN USA 7:06.0 IND
8 Leif Petersen 64 DEN 7:08.5 RACE
9 Peter Francis 61 Denver CO USA 7:09.3 RACE

Yep.

Just of bunch of little old guys.

But so it goes.

That's what I am.

Nonetheless, for those my age and weight, no one is within 20 seconds of me over 2K this year.

And that was without preparing for it.

I am now getting fully trained.

When I am fully trained, over 2K, I'll be as much as 25 seconds faster.

Will that be fast?

No, not in absolute terms.

The Open lwt WR is 20 seconds faster.

So it goes.

Age takes its toll.

ranger