The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 29th, 2010, 5:20 pm

mrfit wrote:I think you called this Mission Accomplished a few weeks ago. I'm not really sure what else you have to do?
Yes.

Not much more technical fiddling is needed.

My technique is steady.

I'm just training with it, now that I have lowered the drag to 123 df. and pumped the rate up to 32 spm.

There is not much new technically, but there is much to do in terms of developing consistency, relaxation, habituation, modulation (resting vs. pushing), in addition to just putting in more and more meters (in order to handle the longest distance rows).

The best distance rowing is done by reflex--unconscious mastery.

Relative to standards in my age and weight division, and therefore relative to what what I might be doing now given what I did back in 2002-2003, I am trying to handle about 1 SPI more stroking power raised 4 spm in rate.

This handles the increased wattage pretty evenly between stroking power and rate--about 30 watts comes from stroking power, 40 watts from rate.

For 30min, for instance, I am aiming at 11 SPI @ 30 spm, while my former self and others my age and weight might be doing 10 SPI @ 26 spm.

The former is 330 watts; the latter, 260 watts.

To establish this competitive difference as an unconscious habit is quite a trick.

It takes some doing.

The increased stroking power comes from my five years of rowing at low rates, high stroking power, and high drag.

The raised rate come from my recent distance rowing at high rates, low stroking power, and low drag.

Both advances are technical, but of very different sorts.

The former advance is largely a matter of a more effective and efficient drive.

The latter advance is largely a matter of a more efficient recovery.

In terms of pace, the 70 watt difference is 8 seconds per 500m.

1:50 vs. 1:42

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

JohnBove
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by JohnBove » April 29th, 2010, 5:46 pm

ranger wrote:When I train to race, I do the same.

When you train to race, racing is redundant, predictable--for everyone.
Despite your subsequent lying denials you trained to race this season. You said so. And you made predictions. And they were all woefully off. So why do you write this shite?

JohnBove
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by JohnBove » April 29th, 2010, 5:58 pm

ranger wrote:Not much more technical fiddling is needed.


This is another gem. He's been "fiddling" for years, has claimed many times that his stroke is perfect, "mission accomplished," and other trite cliches, and yet he still needs to keep the door open so that he can provide excuses for future failure.

As for the rest of this --
I'm just training with it, now that I have lowered the drag to 123 df. and pumped the rate up to 32 spm.

There is not much new technically, but there is much to do in terms of developing consistency, relaxation, habituation, modulation (resting vs. pushing), in addition to just putting in more and more meters (in order to handle the longest distance rows).

The best distance rowing is done by reflex--unconscious mastery.

Relative to standards in my age and weight division, and therefore relative to what what I might be doing now given what I did back in 2002-2003, I am trying to handle about 1 SPI more stroking power raised 4 spm in rate.

This handles the increased wattage pretty evenly between stroking power and rate--about 30 watts comes from stroking power, 40 watts from rate.

For 30min, for instance, I am aiming at 11 SPI @ 30 spm, while my former self and others my age and weight might be doing 10 SPI @ 26 spm.

The former is 330 watts; the latter, 260 watts.

To establish this competitive difference as an unconscious habit is quite a trick.

It takes some doing.

The increased stroking power comes from my five years of rowing at low rates, high stroking power, and high drag.

The raised rate come from my recent distance rowing at high rates, low stroking power, and low drag.

Both advances are technical, but of very different sorts.

The former advance is largely a matter of a more effective and efficient drive.

The latter advance is largely a matter of a more efficient recovery.

In terms of pace, the 70 watt difference is 8 seconds per 500m.

1:50 vs. 1:42
-- I think I've said before that reading this jackass's posts is like reading those of a similar jackass who believes he's discovered perpetual motion: the same crank, wrong-headed knowledge of the relevant science; the same obsession with self; the same delusional mania; the same excuses for repeated failure.

mrfit
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by mrfit » April 29th, 2010, 9:02 pm

ranger wrote:
mrfit wrote:I think you called this Mission Accomplished a few weeks ago. I'm not really sure what else you have to do?
Yes.

Not much more technical fiddling is needed.

My technique is steady.

I'm just training with it, now that I have lowered the drag to 123 df. and pumped the rate up to 32 spm.

There is not much new technically, but there is much to do in terms of developing consistency, relaxation, habituation, modulation (resting vs. pushing), in addition to just putting in more and more meters (in order to handle the longest distance rows).

The best distance rowing is done by reflex--unconscious mastery.

Relative to standards in my age and weight division, and therefore relative to what what I might be doing now given what I did back in 2002-2003, I am trying to handle about 1 SPI more stroking power raised 4 spm in rate.

This handles the increased wattage pretty evenly between stroking power and rate--about 30 watts comes from stroking power, 40 watts from rate.

For 30min, for instance, I am aiming at 11 SPI @ 30 spm, while my former self and others my age and weight might be doing 10 SPI @ 26 spm.

The former is 330 watts; the latter, 260 watts.

To establish this competitive difference as an unconscious habit is quite a trick.

It takes some doing.

The increased stroking power comes from my five years of rowing at low rates, high stroking power, and high drag.

The raised rate come from my recent distance rowing at high rates, low stroking power, and low drag.

Both advances are technical, but of very different sorts.

The former advance is largely a matter of a more effective and efficient drive.

The latter advance is largely a matter of a more efficient recovery.

In terms of pace, the 70 watt difference is 8 seconds per 500m.

1:50 vs. 1:42

ranger


You do have lots to do tomorrow. :D

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 30th, 2010, 3:32 am

John Bove wrote:you trained to race this season

The quality of your training doesn't come from the quantity of your racing.

Just the opposite.

The quality of your racing comes from the quantity of your training.

As this shows:

RANKING RESULTS 2010

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (59–70) | Current 2010 Season

1 Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.4 RACE
2 Hugh Pite 65 Sidney BC CAN 7:02.7 RACE
3 Robert Lakin 61 Wichita KS USA 7:03.6 RACE
4 gregory brock 62 santa cruz ca USA 7:03.9 IND
5 Rolf Meek 59 Oslo NOR 7:05.4 IND
6 Jerry Lawson 62 USA 7:06.0 RACE
6 Gerald Lawson 62 Winona MN USA 7:06.0 IND
8 Leif Petersen 64 DEN 7:08.5 RACE
9 Peter Francis 61 Denver CO USA 7:09.3 RACE

This year I wasn't even training to race.

I just did foundational training (early on in the year) and normal distance rowing (later on).

I did no threshold rowing, distance trials, or anaerobic sharpening (top-end UT1, AT, TR, AN).

I just stayed within the flow of my training. I didn't sacrifice my training to race preparation and racing.

Nonetheless, among those my age and weight (or older), no one came within twenty seconds, five seconds per 500m, of my 2K.

When I add to my training the harder and faster rowing that I need to do for proper race preparation, that gap will become 10 seconds per 500m.

As a result of the idiosyncratic training I have done over the last seven years, when I am fully trained, I will row, rejuvenated, like an elite 30s lightweight, while those my age and weight are rowing, prematurely aged, like 70s lightweights.

The difference is 40 seconds over 2K.

As you age, following one of traditional training plans, which were all designed for young college rowers, leaves you with one foot in the grave.

You lose your stroking power.

You lose your aerobic capacity.

The slope is slippery indeed and the decline swift.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

snowleopard
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by snowleopard » April 30th, 2010, 4:10 am

ranger wrote:
John Bove wrote:you trained to race this season

The quality of your training doesn't come from the quantity of your racing.

Just the opposite.

The quality of your racing comes from the quantity of your training.
Rubbish.

You could row 400K a month at 2:10 and still not be able to break 7:00. Low quality, high quantity training does not equip anyone to to race well.

And in your case quantity alone does not equip you to race well, consistently. How many races slower than 7:00 did you have this season?

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 30th, 2010, 5:07 am

_Hugely_ relaxed FM stroke now, 1:48 @ 26 spm, steady state, HR stable at around 155 bpm.

Perfect.

I can _really_ pour on the meters now.

Your FM pace is really your minimal pace for distance training.

Delighted with this.

Rowing 1:48 @ 26 spm as a minimal pace and rate for my day to day distance rowing is spectacular training for a 60s lightweight.

The 60s lightweight hammer at WIRC 2010 pulled 1:46 pace for 2K (7:03.6).

1:48/2:32 is just a couple of minutes off of the Open lwt WR for a FM, which is around 2:30.

1:48/2:32is Rob Slocum's long-standing 50s _heavyweight_ WR for a FM.

I am rowing right at my FM target.

1:48 for a FM predicts a 6:16 2K.

A FM is done at 2K + 14.

123 df.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 30th, 2010, 5:20 am

snowleopard wrote:quantity alone does not equip you to race well
True.

Without any race preparation, this year, I was only twenty seconds faster over 2K than anyone my age and weight.

When I add in some hard distance rowing and sharpening, I will be forty seconds faster over 2K than anyone my age and weight.

You are right.

Quality rowing, at least for a few months before a big race, helps your 2K _a lot_, above and beyond the base you establish with your UT rowing.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

mrfit
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by mrfit » April 30th, 2010, 5:22 am

26 spm in training? I thought it was 30spm forever. 30 spm did not work out so well?

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by PaulH » April 30th, 2010, 7:18 am

mrfit wrote:26 spm in training? I thought it was 30spm forever. 30 spm did not work out so well?
Or maybe 29, e.g.
ranger wrote:Gorgeously stable rowing now, 1:43 @ 29 spm (10 MPS, 11 SPI), with my HR still under my anaerobic threshold.

Couldn't ask for anything better.

With a light drag, great length, quick finishes and recoveries, and good preparation at the catch, the rate doesn't feel high at all.

Snappy.

No need to row at a lower rate.

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 30th, 2010, 7:51 am

mrfit wrote:26 spm in training? I thought it was 30spm forever. 30 spm did not work out so well?
26 spm is for a FM.

That's 155 bpm, a minimin for distance rowing.

My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm.

No, I am not going to row a FM at 30 spm and 172 bpm.

That's my target for 30min.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Citroen » April 30th, 2010, 8:00 am

ranger wrote: I am not going to row a FM at 30 spm and 172 bpm.
First true statement from Ranger all year.

Although I can simplify it a bit for you, "I am not going to row a FM."

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 30th, 2010, 8:12 am

Beautiful 6K OTW just before dawn after 20K on the erg.

Warm and calm.

I took a couple of good strokes, here and there.

:D :D

Nice to row on the Huron River when it is high, clean, and clear of vegetation.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

whp4
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by whp4 » April 30th, 2010, 8:46 am

ranger wrote: Nice to row on the Huron River when it is high, clean, and clear of vegetation.
Too bad there's still the occasional giant turd thrashing about at this time of year.

mrfit
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by mrfit » April 30th, 2010, 9:26 am

ranger wrote:
mrfit wrote:26 spm in training? I thought it was 30spm forever. 30 spm did not work out so well?
26 spm is for a FM.

That's 155 bpm, a minimin for distance rowing.

My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm.

No, I am not going to row a FM at 30 spm and 172 bpm.

That's my target for 30min.

ranger
Ok, then when you say, "no need to row lower than 30spm in training" then, perhaps you should clarify it to mean no need to rate lower than 30 unless you need to row at 155bpm. Your absolute confused me there!

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