Handle Bio-mechanics

[Slidewinder]

Bloomp:
Re: "Also, at no point in the rowing stroke do you rotate your arms as shown."
I don't understand why you repeatedly refer to errors in my personal technique and suggest by this that the prototype handle design is directly the cause (eg. hands too far back at the finish; too much rotation of the hands).

As expressed in a previous post, if you have an argument that the Slidewinder handle design is directly causing either of these flaws in my technique, then please share it with us. If you have no such argument then these are petty and mean-spirited comments.

What could possibly be your objection to being able to rotate the hands when working out on the ergometer? If you, Bloomp, don't want to rotate your hands (or rotate them very little) when using the new handle, then that is your choice. Having that choice is hugely liberating. It enables an entire range of movement that also includes numerous non-rowing stroke geometries. You, as a rower, dismiss these other options, but most people who have tried the new handle are thrilled to be able to rotate their hands at any time and in any direction they choose. It's like being freed from a strait-jacket.
Robert

[bloomp]

Bloomp:
Re: "Also, at no point in the rowing stroke do you rotate your arms as shown."
I don't understand why you repeatedly refer to errors in my personal technique and suggest by this that the prototype handle design is directly the cause (eg. hands too far back at the finish; too much rotation of the hands).

As expressed in a previous post, if you have an argument that the Slidewinder handle design is directly causing either of these flaws in my technique, then please share it with us. If you have no such argument then these are petty and mean-spirited comments.

What could possibly be your objection to being able to rotate the hands when working out on the ergometer? If you, Bloomp, don't want to rotate your hands (or rotate them very little) when using the new handle, then that is your choice. Having that choice is hugely liberating. It enables an entire range of movement that also includes numerous non-rowing stroke geometries. You, as a rower, dismiss these other options, but most people who have tried the new handle are thrilled to be able to rotate their hands at any time and in any direction they choose. It's like being freed from a strait-jacket.
Robert

Look, I don't know what part of my point you're missing. You made the Slidewinder so that people can be 'liberated'. I'm telling you that when you actually row, you never use the motion the Slidewinder can provide you with. In sculling, you finish the stroke and either release one hand in front of the other or one on top of the other. You never twist your arms (like the Slidewinder allows you to) at any point in the stroke. At most it's a hand over hand motion, not an arm-over-arm motion.

And congrats, you made it more comfortable. If you're worried about comfort, why ever try anything that's demanding? Why bother getting off the couch if where you're going is not as comfortable? Fitness requires sacrifice. And so that might be something like actually learning how to properly row or dealing with a little discomfort.

[Tinus]

And congrats, you made it more comfortable. If you're worried about comfort, why ever try anything that's demanding? Why bother getting off the couch if where you're going is not as comfortable? Fitness requires sacrifice. And so that might be something like actually learning how to properly row or dealing with a little discomfort.

In general comfort makes one go faster. Or, would you rather have, for instance, a seat which is made with a flat surface?

[Cyclist2]

If the C2 seat is not a "flat surface", man, I don't know what is. It is about the most uncomfortable rowing seat ever devised, IMHO. No way I can use that thing without a pad! I'm still looking for an old rowing shell seat to retrofit onto it, anyone have one lying around?

[Tinus]

If the C2 seat is not a "flat surface", man, I don't know what is. It is about the most uncomfortable rowing seat ever devised, IMHO. No way I can use that thing without a pad! I'm still looking for an old rowing shell seat to retrofit onto it, anyone have one lying around?

Touché, but it only reinforces my point. There is a paradox in people seeking to get out of their comfort zone by means of heavy exercise, but they also want to do this in a comfortable manner. I believe the desire to go as fast as possible is what causes this split up.

[Nosmo]

If the C2 seat is not a "flat surface", man, I don't know what is. It is about the most uncomfortable rowing seat ever devised, IMHO. No way I can use that thing without a pad! I'm still looking for an old rowing shell seat to retrofit onto it, anyone have one lying around?

Touché, but it only reinforces my point. There is a paradox in people seeking to get out of their comfort zone by means of heavy exercise, but they also want to do this in a comfortable manner. I believe the desire to go as fast as possible is what causes this split up.

Sorry I don't want see the paradox. Of course one wants to be comfortable. Or at least comfortable enough so that it doesn't interfere with one's movement, one can ignore a little chaffing for a while but try running with a rock in your shoe and you can't.

Cyclist2: No seat is going to work for everyone. C2 put a lot of research into their seat and it works very well for most but it is not going to work for everyone. As a cyclist I sure you are aware that it is the same way (if not much more so) with bicycle seats.

[Cyclist2]

Two different meanings of "comfort" being discussed here, I think. Doing a 2K piece in a PB is definitely uncomfortable, but feels "good". Sitting on that board of a C2 seat (or using the broomstick handle as this thread started) is uncomfortable and feels really BAD! That's why there are so many tinkerers (myself included) modifying their machines - mostly to be more comfortable as they try to push through their comfort zone.

If you compare the ONE machine C2 offers to the hundreds, maybe thousands, of bicycles offered of different sizes and shapes (look through a Performance Bicycle catalog for a snapshot of the variety of bikes and components) they evidently have opted to make it fit the general population and keep the cost down (one high quality bicycle saddle can cost easily over $100, for example) at the expense of individual comfort. Maybe they could take all these cool ideas and offer them as "options", at increased cost, to try to get better individual fit. I know I'd spend a few extra bucks for a rowing shell-type seat!

[Slidewinder]

Cyclist 2:
Re: C2 Seat
I also installed a more comfortable seat on the "Slidewinder" version of the C2 machine. In the opening shot in the video you can catch a glimpse of it. It is considerably smaller than the stock seat, but firmly padded, with two dents placed exactly where those two bones in my bum need them to be. A seat does not need to be big to be comfortable. It is a dream of a seat compared to the one C2 provides.

Where did I get it? I salvaged it from an old no-name brand piston style rower found in a local dumpster!

Thankyou to those posters who also recognize that comfort during the workout is a legitimate goal.
Robert

[Slidewinder]

There are a couple of details of the structural geometry of the prototype handle I'd like to point out and discuss, but I'd prefer to do it with a still image of the handle available. Spacial visualization is not a unique ability, but it is not universal either. My ex-wife taught me this.

I can remember various home renovation projects, at that stage when things were finally coming together, and she would say, "Oh, I didn't know you were going to do it like that!", and I would reply, "What do you think I've been talking about for the last four months?" To which she would say, "I know, but I just couldn't see it."

So, as soon as I get some help (I have very limited computer skills) I'll post a link to two still images of the "Slidewinder" handle so that reference can be made to them.
Robert

[Byron Drachman]

I'm still looking for an old rowing shell seat to retrofit onto it, anyone have one lying around?

Hi Mark,

I snagged one today. Send me a PM with your address and I'll send it to you. My treat. It's worth a try.

My experience tells me Nosmo is right. You don't know if a particular boat seat will be comfortable. One of our club boats is a Kaschper with an old wooden seat that I could sit on for all day. Another boat has a wooden Empacher seat that looks similar but I find it uncomfortable. I am guessing the spacing of the holes isn't quite right for me. I have a Dreher carbon fiber seat on my single that is perfect for me. I have a Maas boat seat on my C2 with C2 seat pads that works for me. Here is a photo of the results of my tinkering, including my feathering handles. If I put the seat attached to the small board on top of the wooden dowel, which is resting on the seat in the photo, then the seat is unstable, otherwise it is stable. It is subtle but the unstable position does work the core.

Of all the tinkering I did the biggest change and the one I think is the most important is that I got the angle of the feet and the height of my heels relative to the top of the seat just like my single. I get full compression comfortably without lifting the heels and feel like I can drive back more efficiently. Everybody who has tried it likes it. But who knows? The next person might hate it.

Click here for my work of art but ignore the rat-chewed shoes:

http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s59/ ... t_C2_2.jpg

added later: I can go back to OEM without too much trouble if I want to rank a piece, and I should mention that Chad (Chgoss) described a clever method to make a comfortable seat.

Byron

[Cyclist2]

Thanks Byron, but it was sort of a rhetorical question. The pad arrangement I have works pretty well (my butt comfort wasn't a problem at all on my first marathon). I think it's pretty cool how inventive people can get to make getting "uncomfortable" as comfortable as possible I have a Maas boat and the seat in that feels great. I finally found a bicycle saddle that works and have the same one on my two road bikes. It took lots of experimenting (and a few $$) to find it, however.

[Rockin Roland]

The most comfortable seat that I have ever used on an erg was the one on the new Oartec Slider. It's so good I reckon you could do a marathon on it without the need for additional padding.

[Slidewinder]

I think I've managed to get one image of the "Slidewinder" handle up. I hadn't at this stage painted the machine flat black, or affixed the "Slidewinder" name to the handle.



Robert

[Slidewinder]

In reference to the posted image of the "Slidewinder" handle: Judging by the number of posts in this thread, handle bio-mechanics is a subject of interest to C2 ergometer users, so I'll assume there will also be interest in certain details of this handle design.

It's a prototype device, so some of the materials used in its construction differ from what would be used if it were ever to be produced in quantity. The handle arms are an aluminum/hardwood lamination, which makes it a bit heavier than it would be if made from an appropriate strength plastic and if weight-reducing voids were cast into the arms. The handgrips are quality mountain bike handgrips with gel padding along the "pull" side. They provide a very comfortable, non-slip, shock-absorbing grip. The handgrip brackets are jig-bent aluminum. At the nose of the handle, the two handle arms are pivotally connected to a small aluminum block which is drilled to accept the C2 chain swivel fitting. The handle design is symmetrical, which reduces the number of unique parts required in its assembly.

You will notice that I have removed the plastic chain port, and the vertical struts which normally hold the performance monitor. I also cut away the plastic bracket protruding from the flywheel housing to which the PM brackets were bolted. These measures open up a corridor down the left side of the flywheel housing to accommodate the forward length of the new handle, thereby retaining the user's full extension at the catch. There are no functional issues with the removal of the plastic chain port. Its absence has never resulted in the chain jumping from the drive sprocket. When not in use, the new handle rests on a glued -down length of rubber belting material.

Concept 2 engineers will know that the vertical PM support struts which I removed, also serve to stabilize the flywheel housing. To restore that stability, I extended one of the front bolts holding the two halves of the flywheel housing together. The new bolt is shaped like a long "L". The short part of the "L" fits into a small hole drilled in the centre of the front leg. It fully stabilizes the flywheel housing - with substantial savings in material.

The removal of the above described "junk" (1 flywheel housing bracket, 2 vertical struts, 1 plastic chain port, 8 associated nuts and bolts; 1 PM mounting arm and 2 associated nuts and bolts; 1 handle retaining clip and 2 associated nuts and bolts) considerably cleans up the appearance of the machine. It restores it to what it should be: a design of simple functionality. (replacing the foot straps with a single, simple mechanism continues this theme of uncluttered functionality)

It's true that the PM is no longer mounted on the end of a long plastic snout, but I didn't like the screen right in my face anyway. My eyes are not the best, but I have no problem reading the monitor from its new location atop the flywheel housing.

That's the structure. In a future post I'll write about geometry, and how it relates to the handle's functionality.

Robert

[johnlvs2run]

Photos of my handle designs, mentioned in msg#2, have been moved and should now be visible.