The Two Types of Training

[PaulH]

You know, 60min at your anaerobic threshold, top-end UT1?

A balanced training program would do this sort of rowing at least a couple of times a week.

When I _really_ have it going, I like to do this kind of rowing every day, even twice a day.

Is this your sneaky way of telling us that you've done a 60 minute piece, and will be ranking it any minute now? Oh ranger, you are a sly one!

[mikvan52]

Mike--

Do you do any sustained "threshold" rowing of any sort?

You know, 60min at your anaerobic threshold, top-end UT1?

A balanced training program would do this sort of rowing at least a couple of times a week.

When I _really_ have it going, I like to do this kind of rowing every day, even twice a day.

If you _don't_ do this knd of rowing, why not?

IMHO, it is the bread-and-butter of all training for rowing.

It is best to do this rowing at 10 MPS, that is, keeping the rate up, 28-32 spm.

When you say "steady state" rowing, do you ever mean "steady state" at your anaerobic threshold?

Or do you just mean "rest day," easy rowing, UT2, or even easier, just paddling, etc.?

ranger

You are hilarious, Rich. Every last detail of my training is logged on the C2 blog site. Please look there before asking.

...and your meanings of basic terminology don't match accepted ones: So, why should I bother to explain simple things like steady state or AT.
Example:
For you: AT is a heart rate and doesn't have anything to do with what is going on in the blood as it relates to oxygen chemistry.

All my training these days is on the water where you don't seem to have any knowledge of what steady state is. If I'm mistaken here, what was the longest uninterrupted (no breaks) piece you've ever rowed on the water and how many minutes did it take you?

Moving a boat for long periods of time involves many more issues than sitting on a stationary rail.

Now perhaps your question is about what I do on the erg (my off-season). (Realize, too, that you erg 10 million meters a year while I only do 800,000 !) Answers to such erg questions are also in my blog.
Look at last December where did things like 4 x 15' , 5 x 12' on the erg and see where I logged my HRs. You know my AT occurs in and around 143 bpm... so you can judge.
As for flat out max test pieces at distance... I am above AT after 12-15 minutes. I generally don't wear a monitor then and concentrate on holding pace regardless of HR. This is what got me a comfortable 16,132 meters for an hour at age 55 as a lwt. I believe that if one confines one's analysis to 55-59 lights, my 16,132 meters is an all-time best.

Back to the water:
In the boat, I concentrate on form when single sculling for 2 x 30 to 45' (3'-5' breaks at the turn-around only). It's good form that allows me to go faster ... not rate. I usually average 2:07 to 2:09 pace for one of those two long interrupted pieces in such a session. I seldom go over 23 spm on long rows. The load (oars/boat geometry) is quite different than on the erg. This is why rough comparisons of rate & pace do not work when looking at both erg and OTW.

I hope this all-too-lengthy explanation helps. Especially when you may be partially transitioning your athletic efforts to racing OTW in the next few years.

Maybe when you come to VT in June we can do a longish distance rows on the water so you can experience the feel of uninterrupted distance rowing. The CT river allows me to go as far as I wish without stopping to turn around, generally on flat water. Please don't ask me to erg w/you this June. Erging is inferior to rowing on the water when OTW performance is the main goal. Buzz has even suggested that I give up erging completely. (WOW)

BTW: My first OTW race this year will be Narragansett's "Mayors Cup" the end of May. It's a 1k (as are all early season Master's races OTW) I won by 5 seconds last year. Scott Roop was 2nd. He was a little out of shape early in the year and beat me in a head wind at another race in July. The July race was quite competitive: Rick Anderson came all the way from Michigan and nearly took second. What a sprinter he is! Hope you get to scull against him. He's 60 now.

[ranger]

Look at last December where did things like 4 x 15' , 5 x 12' on the erg and see where I logged my HRs. You know my AT occurs in and around 143 bpm... so you can judge.

Ah.

So you don't do 60min rows at all, except in trials, once in a blue moon?

If you did 60min rows on the erg, day in and day out, staying below your anaerobic threshold, at what pace would you do them?

ranger

[snowleopard]

So you don't do 60min rows at all, except in trials, once in a blue moon?

Which [continuously] is more often than you, ranger

[mikvan52]

Look at last December where did things like 4 x 15' , 5 x 12' on the erg and see where I logged my HRs. You know my AT occurs in and around 143 bpm... so you can judge.

Ah.

So you don't do 60min rows at all, except in trials, once in a blue moon?

If you did 60min rows on the erg, day in and day out, staying below your anaerobic threshold, at what pace would you do them?

ranger

Rich:
It's Sunday: a good day to devote to a session where you train to overcome your tendency to remain a perpetual a-hole.

Remind us of any 60 minute row you've logged in recent geological history. You have none as a lwt BTW...

[mikvan52]

If you did 60min rows on the erg, day in and day out, staying below your anaerobic threshold, at what pace would you do them?

If you understood the sense o my long post earlier today:
The question would read:

" Since 60 min rows on the erg day in day out are not part of a good training routine for OTW water rowers, why don't you do them anyway so I can compare them to my own training which doesn't include them either?"
( I won't go into the 'blind alley' concerning your undocumented AT again. Test it and we can have a conversation.)

[ranger]

If you did 60min rows on the erg, day in and day out, staying below your anaerobic threshold, at what pace would you do them?

If you understood the sense o my long post earlier today:
The question would read:

" Since 60 min rows on the erg day in day out are not part of a good training routine for OTW water rowers, why don't you do them anyway so I can compare them to my own training which doesn't include them either?"
( I won't go into the 'blind alley' concerning your undocumented AT again. Test it and we can have a conversation.)

True.

Continuous 60min rows haven't been part of my routine for quite a while, but they soon will be again.

When I first took up rowing, that's _all_ that I did, once or twice a day, for a couple of years.

After that, for the next couple of years, 60min was my bread-and-butter, the session I did more than anything else.

I have done hundreds and hundreds of 60min rows on the erg and will do thousands of them from here on out.

It is interesting that you don't do them.

There is no reason to test for your AT, Mike.

Just do hard 60min rows at 10 MPS (i.e., 27-30 spm) and note what where your HR rides, steady state, through the middle 30min or so of the row.

That's your anaerobic threshold.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

You made some comments on the gearing of your oars.

Sorry, but I seem to have misplaced it.

Could you give it to me again.

I want to check mine out and try different gearings.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Mike--

You made some comments on the gearing of your oars.

Sorry, but I seem to have misplaced it.

Could you give it to me again.

I want to check mine out and try different gearings.

ranger

I use a great resource for rigging questions:

http://www.maxrigging.com/about-2
Mike Davenport makes it clear.

Remember: Different oars (type & make) require different overall length consideration. It good to pay attn (too) to overlap of handles and inboard vs outboard ratios. It takes a while to get these thing optimized for an individual's frame.

For instance (on length): My C2 Fat-Smoothie 2's are set at 278 1/2 cm whereas my old blades are longer.. mainly because the blade faces on the new blades are larger than on the old design (original smoothies from 2001-2002)...
What blades so you have?
I find that shorter length oars allow me to set my foot stretchers further aft putting my hips at 5 cm through the pin at the catch. This results in being effectively faster at lower rates... IOW easier on my CV system at lower rates (as you've pointed out)....
I hope this isn't confusing things for you. What this means is that I maintain effective load to match what strength endurance and skill I've been able to develop and hold on to through the years.

Other topics:
Span & work-through...
I'll spare everyone here the details.
It's best to look such things up and read about them first... then you can make it 'right for you'..."one size" does not fit all.

[whp4]

Mike--

You made some comments on the gearing of your oars.

Sorry, but I seem to have misplaced it.

Could you give it to me again.

I want to check mine out and try different gearings.

ranger

Whenever anyone asks for a link to something you've posted, your response is invariably "look it up." How fortunate for you Mike isn't an asshole like you, eh? Of course, another difference would be that Mike's stuff is worth reading...

I look forward to your OTW racing career, where Mike (and many, many others) will be "giving it to you again" over and over

[ranger]

Mike--

What kind of handle overlap do you use?

What is your "outboard" length?

ranger

[ranger]

Mike (and many, many others) will be "giving it to you again" over and over

Yes, I have a lot to learn about rowing OTW, so it is going to be a while before I do well.

Learning to row OTW is fun, though, and it helps my erging, too.

I love being out on the water.

I am a canoeist, sailor, and swimmer. I grew up in and around the water at my summer home in Door County, WI, and at a summer camp in Algonquin Park, Ontario.

Today, I am going to try both a more forward setting on my footstretcher and quite a bit more "outboard" length on my oars.

ranger

[JohnBove]

Over the last two years, in my 2K races, I have been rowing at WR pace without preparing for it.

No you haven't. Roy's record is 6:38.1. You haven't been close in years. And, although you repeatedly say you didn't prepare, you've as often said that you did. You repeatedly contradict yourself. Or, more to the point, you're a liar.

This year, the 6:41 2K I pulled in competition (without even preparing for it) was six seconds faster than any other 55s lwt, nine seconds faster than Mike VB pulled to win the 55s lwt hammer the WIRC 2010, even though I am 59.

The difference between your time and Mike's is 6.2 seconds.

The difference in pace between the two of you is 1:40.35/500 vs. 1 41.9. That's what seven years of work has gained for you over someone who ergs mainly as training for OTW rowing.

6:41 is 15 seconds faster than the 60s lwt American record.

You're not sixty. The world record in your age group is Roy's.

So, factually, there has certainly never been anything like it in the US--by a country mile.

Factually, you have performed nothing remotely beyond the ordinary.. You're more than three seconds slower than the world record for your age and weight.

[ranger]

The difference between your time and Mike's is 6.2 seconds.

In terms of WIRC, Mike is two years younger than I am.

He'll be 60 at WIRC 2013.

ranger

[ranger]

Roy's record is 6:38.1. You haven't been close in years.

My unprepared 6:41s, both this year and last, are _very_ close to Roy's 6:38.

It is Roy who hasn't been close in years.

If Roy comes back to rowing, like Mike VB, he'll have a hard time pulling 6:50.

ranger