The Two Types of Training

[Carl Watts]

Given what I could do when I was 50, this predicts the following times for my distance rows over the next couple of weeks.

FM 1:56
HM 1:53
60min 1:52
10K 1:50
30min 1:49
6K 1:48
5K 1:47

And, indeed, give or take a bit, these are pretty close to the present standards for 60s lightweights.

I think I will best these standards by 7 seconds per 500m.

If I do, my training over the last seven years will have been the best in the history of the sport.

ranger

You no longer have "a couple of weeks" you have 9 days so you had better stop Posting and start Erging !

Personally I don't think you can even get close to the numbers above, let alone improve on them by 7 sec per 500M but by all means prove me (and everyone else) wrong.

10K at 1:50 happens to be my target by the end of 2010 and I'm currently actually rowing it at little over 1:54 so with some more actual training I might just get there.

[ranger]

your erg spi of 11

On the erg, for 1K, I suspect I will pull 12 SPI, not 11 SPI, ideally, at 40 spm.

ranger

[ranger]

with some more actual training I might just get there.

"Actual" meaning "timed"?

Hilarious stuff.

No, timing your rows won't make you better.

Getting better at rowing will make you better.

Getting better at rowing doesn't have anything to do with timing.

Getting better at rowing has to do with improving your strength, endurance, quickness, agility, flexibility, leverage, sequencing, posture, balance, rhythmicity, relaxation, habituation, etc.

What do you rate when you row 1:54?

26 spm?

If so, IMHO, your training is out of sequence and, if you have any ambition at all, will have to be entirely redone, if you continue as you are.

If you are only pulling 8.8 SPI, you are just habituating yourself to ineffective rowing, which will cap your possibilities at very low levels, as you raise the rate and become efficient with it.

At 8.8 SPI, 36 spm is 1:43.5, which will get you 7:14 for 2K, right about what you do now.

ranger

[ranger]

Why would I expend extra energy to get the same boat speed?

(1) No one says that you should.

(2) That you don't doesn't mean that others can't.

(3) If you maintain the pace at a higher rate, but lower SPI, it is not clear that you expend more energy.

(4) If you maintain the SPI, but raised the rate, you raise the pace, not keep it even.

(5) Pace is rate x SPI.

(6) Your problem on the erg is not SPI but rate. I would guess that you row just about as fast on the erg at 11-12 SPI as you do at 9 SPI, for all distances. But relative to most lightweights who row at 11-12 SPI in a natural way, your ratings are about 6 spm low. Someone like Graham Watt or Paul Siebach would row a 2K, 36 spm @ 11 SPI, not 30 spm @ 11 SPI.

(7) For those who row well and train hard over many years, limited ratings at a standard SPI are a sign of low aerobic capacity, which comes with age, but, it seems, on different schedules for different people, depending on their personal histories. If you don't use it, you lose it.

ranger

[Carl Watts]

"Actual" meaning actually doing it.

23 SPM average for the 10K.

[ranger]

"Actual" meaning actually doing it.

23 SPM average for the 10K.

23 spm is low rate rowing.

Effective low rate rowing for a big heavyweight is 1:38 @ 23 spm (16 SPI).

That is rowing with about 60% more power per stroke than you are generating at the moment.

The issue is not aerobic.

The issue is technical and skeletal-muscular.

Technical and skeletal-muscular issues have nothing to do with timing.

Yes, they do indeed have a lot to do with "actually doing it," though.

And rowing effectively is not what you are doing at all--ever, not for one stroke, much less for the 1000 or so strokes it takes to do a 10K.

ranger

[ranger]

Yea.

Clearly, the trick to great distance rowing for lightweights is to rate 32 spm under your anaerobic threshold, that is, for long distance rows, such as 60min and HM.

I used to do this just naturally.

I seem to be approaching it (again).

Once you are rating 32 spm in your distance rowing, and therefore are _very_ efficient, the only remaining issue is stroking power, technique, effectiveness, etc.

But if you have done your homework with a lot of low rate rowing at high stroking powers, this should be no problem.

You should be able to lighten up a couple of SPIs and therefore row very easily at a substantial stroking power without sacrificing your technique.

When I rate 32 spm in my distance rowing and therefore am maximally efficient, I seem to do about 11 SPI, 2 SPI below rowing effectively at low rates (13 SPI).

"Frothing"

Back in 2003, I suspect that I did my 60min pb at 32 spm, "frothing" along easily, but rowing badly, at 9 SPI, rather than 11 SPI.

At 32 spm, 2 SPI is worth 64 watts or about 7 seconds per 500m.

There's that seven seconds per 500m again!

ranger

[ranger]

If I can get to 32 spm in my distance rowing, that is, just below my anaerobic threshold, then I should be able to get to 34-36 spm for the last 1K or so of a 5K/6K, pushing my HR to max.

5K/6K is done at AT.

ranger

[ranger]

MIke--

At 11 SPI, you rate 29 spm for 2K.

Nice SPI!

But your rate sucks.

This coming year, I think I might rate 40 spm for 2K.

ranger

[ranger]

Carl--

For each SPI you can get in your stroke by improving your effectiveness without increasing your effort, you'll get three seconds per 500m in pace.

For a big heavyweight, at the moment, in your low rate rowing, such as 10K @ 23 spm, you are five SPI, and therefore fifteen seconds per 500m, from rowing well.

ranger

[aharmer]

At the end of April you'll have some bullshit story about not having time to do your distance trials. Meanwhile you have a couple hours each day to come on here and talk about the great things you don't really do on the erg, and to belittle people like Carl because they're not rowing at 16 SPI. Why don't you step off your freakin high horse and do a distance trial so we can see how great you really are. A witness would be appreciated to get the real story, although you've already ignored that request about 3 times so I know it will never happen. No more excuses. My father, who you could learn a hell of a lot from, always says "I don't give a damn what you say, show me what you can do"

[ranger]

At the end of April you'll have some bullshit story about not having time to do your distance trials. Meanwhile you have a couple hours each day to come on here and talk about the great things you don't really do on the erg, and to belittle people like Carl because they're not rowing at 16 SPI. Why don't you step off your freakin high horse and do a distance trial so we can see how great you really are. A witness would be appreciated to get the real story, although you've already ignored that request about 3 times so I know it will never happen. No more excuses. My father, who you could learn a hell of a lot from, always says "I don't give a damn what you say, show me what you can do"

I have already demonstrated in spades what I can do; I have nothing to prove. I have three WR rows. I was the first 50s lwt to row sub-6:30. I have done 16.7K for 60min, 17:10 for 5K. I have rowed 100K in 6:43, etc. This year I have the best 2K in my age and weight division by 6 seconds, without even preparing for it.

I do trials when I am ready, and I am indeed getting ready. I am now up to 32 spm in my distance rowing. That's is pretty much all I need for distance trials.

BTW, the most important thing that you _do_ in this sport is train. Training has nothing to do with racing.

In this sport, those who race all the time, rather than train, are the real nay-doers.

ranger

[ranger]

belittle people like Carl

I am not belittling anyone.

I am critiquing the view that a focus on timed "pieces" is the best training, especially for beginners.

ranger

[ranger]

My father, who you could learn a hell of a lot from, always says "I don't give a damn what you say, show me what you can do"

What's your father's 2K?



Yea, when you are only 60 years old, as I am, you still have a lot to learn from older folks who have done something in this world.



I am just a kid.

I should respect my elders.

Wisdom and life experience get short shrift these days.

They deserve more respect.



ranger

[ranger]

A witness would be appreciated to get the real story

"The real story"?

Not sure what you are talking about.

If you do a trial, IND_V with screen shots of splits and heart rates, the PM4 gives you the _whole_ story, no?

Not sure what other story you are looking for.

How many hot dogs your witness ate while I was rowing?

Whether the mustard on the hot dogs was up to snuff?

ranger