The Two Types of Training

[Nosmo]

Just because Ebbesen, Luini & Stephansen row at 42/44 spm doesn't mean the MVB should row the way they do, or that they will be fastest at a 40/42 when they are 60.

Of course not. It takes someone very talented and smart to be able to do this.

The idea that the sculler who can rate the highest will win or that someone will go faster if they could rate higher is just not borne out by either theory or evidence.

Sure it is. Nav posted earlier that the Italians and Danes rated 40.7 and 40.9 in a 4x on the water.
They are the best rowers in the world. No one who rows at 26 spm is going to approach them.

If you think otherwise then give me an example.

For 5K, 32 spm is not a "normal rating" for a 55-59 year old lightweight.

Amazingly, it appears to be quite exceptional. I think my 5k PB was at 33+ spm.

I think Stephansen would row a 5k at 40 spm or higher, and have no question about it at all.

Whatever you say John.
This is getting too silly for me.

[NavigationHazard]

Sure it is. Nav posted earlier that the Italians and Danes rated 40.7 and 40.9 in a 4x on the water.
They are the best rowers in the world. No one who rows at 26 spm is going to approach them.

If you think otherwise then give me an example.

Since you're exhibiting the reasoning skills of a lesser muppet, let's play "one of these things is not like the other." The Italians and Danes were in 4-rower boats in a 2k race. Mike VanBuren rows the 5k length of the HOCR in a 1x. Can you spot the difference?

If you stuck (say) Luini in a 1x he wouldn't row 40+ for 2k. It'd be less. It'd be considerably less still for 5k. Not that it will make any difference to you, but the all-time HOCR course record was set at 32 spm by a LW. If you stuck Mike in anything faster than a freshman novice HS lightweight girls' coxed pair he'd rate higher than 26 for 5k. So would virtually any single sculler.

[snowleopard]

Sure it is. Nav posted earlier that the Italians and Danes rated 40.7 and 40.9 in a 4x on the water.
They are the best rowers in the world. No one who rows at 26 spm is going to approach them.

If you think otherwise then give me an example.

The Germans are the current world champions. Next question SFB.

[mikvan52]

Nosmo:
I'm with you: This Rupp stuff is getting weird...
First he says he doesn't care about OTW stuff and then he has all these opinions on that very subject... Very confusing to me.

As John about seems to be saying about me I'm not that smart..... SO? SINCE I'M NOT SMART I CAN'T ROW WELL
...VERY INTERESTING LOGIC THERE, JOHN!
Stroke your puppy.. the pain of ignorance will pass.. I promise...



Blah-Blah-Blah.

The fact remains

All bait ~ No Hook!

Think I'll send a gift to ranger.
(Bait without a hook is known in the fishing world as "Chum")

So for you, Rich... your very own!

Poly Chum Bag
Poly Chum Bag, Big Game fishing supplies, gifts and equipment from Capt. Harry's Fishing Supply. ... Chum Equipment & Accessories ...
http://www.captharry.com/product/Teaser ... ,/995.html - Cached

Keep the blather coming. It's so very funny even if it's impenetrable in the depths of its ignorance.

I part with this question for the evening
Have either John or Rich every raced or TT'ed on the water or visited a regatta where others have?

Better bring your fishing rod to VT... You can go trolling behind the Peinert...

[johnlvs2run]

The Italians and Danes were in 4-rower boats in a 2k race. Mike VanBuren rows the 5k length of the HOCR in a 1x. Can you spot the difference?

That's easy -- 14 spm.

[jliddil]

Keep the blather coming. It's so very funny even if it's impenetrable in the depths of its ignorance.

[mrfit]

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9918/steady.jpg


Here's a shot of steady power and steady HR over an hour of cycling. This is the highest power (250 watts) and HR (163 avg when up to speed) combination I have on record where both are stable. But...it's not threshold HR. It's a comfortable 17 beats lower. Or at least I believe so.

It's an interesting investigation into "how this all works" which, for me personally, helps plan my training milestones in the "arc" of progress toward my racing goal (State TT champion 45-54 age group).

[ranger]

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/9918/steady.jpg


Here's a shot of steady power and steady HR over an hour of cycling. This is the highest power (250 watts) and HR (163 avg when up to speed) combination I have on record where both are stable. But...it's not threshold HR. It's a comfortable 17 beats lower. Or at least I believe so.

It's an interesting investigation into "how this all works" which, for me personally, helps plan my training milestones in the "arc" of progress toward my racing goal (State TT champion 45-54 age group).

Yes, this seems right.

I am also most comfortable over the center of a long race (e.g., an hour) at about 160 bpm, which is about a dozen bpm under my anaerobic threshold (172 bpm).

This gives me some room to up the effort (to 172 bpm) in the second 30min in order to keep the pace flat and then kick in the last 1K, pushing my heart rate to 185 bpm.

My "base" pace now for the middle of a 60min row is 1:43 @ 29 spm (10 MPS, 11 SPI).

1:43 is my pb 5K pace and Mike VB's 2K race pace.

For the best lightweights, 60min is done at 2K + 9 (double the d, add 3).

Dropped the drag today to 135 df.

So my drag is now entirely normal.

I am using my legs more and more, especially as I row more and more OTW, and match my OTW rowing with my erging, and vice versa.

As everyone knows, it is easier to accelerate the chain with your legs at low drag.

No problem with getting good peak pressure, even at this lower drag.

I am getting 110 kgs. of peak pressure in a smooth, left-leaning haystack.

1:43 is my 60min target, so I am now rowing right at it.

1:43 for 60min predicts 1:34 for 2K.

6:16

1:43 is five seconds per 500m faster than my 60min pb from back in 2003.

It will be exciting if I can hold the 1:43 for 60min.

At least for the duffers and gym rats who post here and log their times on the rankings, 1:43 is beyond the Open lwt WR for 60min.

The best 60s lwt 60min row this year is 15.5K, about 2K shy of what I will pull for 60min if I can hold 1:43.

ranger

[ranger]

the all-time HOCR course record was set at 32 spm by a LW.

There you go.

I think that 32 spm is perfect for a 5K.

At 11 SPI on the erg, that's 16:40.

I'll also try to rate 32 spm for 5K OTW.

I'll try the 5K @ 32 spm on the erg in a couple of weeks.

I am probably a couple of years away from being able to do 5K @ 32 spm OTW.

But I am in no hurry.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

The only difference between us on the erg, really, is rate--about 6 spm.

If we both pull 11 SPI, you'll row 60min @ 23 spm but I will do 29 spm.

For 5K, you will do 26 spm but I will do 32 spm.

For 2K, you will do 30 spm but I will do 37 spm.

The difference has nothing to do with effectiveness and efficiency--technique.

We pretty much row the same in terms of stroking power, etc.

It has to do with aerobic capacity.

We row the same rates and paces at the same HRs.

But your maxHR is 163 bpm.

My maxHR is 190 bpm.

Your anaerobic threshold is 143 bpm.

My anaerobic threshold is 172 bpm.

ranger

[ranger]

You can go trolling behind the Peinert

Well, I might still be trolling, I suppose, but it won't be in a Peinert.

With some of the money that I am inheriting from my mother, I'll be buying a new FluidDesign "el".

http://www.rowfluidesign.com/home.html

My Peinert is pretty old and beaten up now.

I'll give it to my second son, Colin, who is interested in rowing, and leave it up at my cottage for the time being.

I have been due for an upgrade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6nr8hPnZfMU


ranger

[mikvan52]

Mike--

The only difference between us on the erg, really, is rate--about 6 spm.
If we both pull 11 SPI, you'll row 60min @ 23 spm but I w(ould) do 29 spm.
For 5K, you will do 26 spm but I w(ould) do 32 spm.
For 2K, you will do 30 spm but I w(ould) do 37 spm.
The difference has nothing to do with effectiveness and efficiency--technique.
We pretty much row the same
in terms of stroking power, etc.

I'd like to add that you don't have any 55-59 record on the C2 log of ever having rowed 5k and beyond as a lwt.
Why is that?
Would you consider that to be another difference between us?

A bushel of 'ifs' don't add up to a definite conclusion, my friend....
So: I've changed you "wills" to woulds to reflect current history.

Anyone with good aerobic capacity and 10 million meters on the erg in the past year can row a decent 5k. What's your current time for one? Please add HR and weight details before and after the piece..

BTW: I applaud you choice of a new single... When is it going to be delivered?

[ranger]

I'd like to add that you don't have any 55-59 record on the C2 log of ever having rowed 5k and beyond as a lwt. Why is that?

I've never done the distance races as a 55s lwt.

I did 1:43 for 5K when I was 53, a complete novice, and didn't know how to row.

But since then, I have been working on getting better, rather than racing (i.e., showing how good I am, over and over, without getting any better, or most likely, getting worse).

Mission Accomplished.

I think I'll now pull 1:39/16:30 for 5K.

I'll pull 1:43/17.5K for 60min.

ranger

P.S. What did you pull for 5K on the erg when you you were 53 and didn't know how to row because you were a complete novice? Was it better than 1:43/17:10?

[ranger]

[quote="mikvan52""]Anyone with good aerobic capacity and 10 million meters on the erg in the past year can row a decent 5k. What's your current time for one? [/quote]

Well, my 6:41 2K this winter predicts about 17:30, but I don't think that 2K was anywhere near my best.

It was done at max drag, half trained, with my distance rowing closer to 26 spm than 32 spm.

Over the last two months, I have built the rate to 32 spm on my distance rowing and lowered the drag to 135 df.

This has been _very_ productive training.

Now, I think I'll pb for 5K--pretty easily.

My pb is 1:43

The best 5Ks this year by those my age and weight or older are these:

RANKING RESULTS 2010

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 5000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (59–70) | Current 2010 Season

1 Henry Baker 62 Santa Barbara CA USA 18:25.7 RowPro
gregory brock 61 santa cruz ca USA 18:27.9 IND
Bob Willis 59 Longmeadow Ma USA 18:30.6 IND
2 Rolf Meek 59 Oslo NOR 18:42.9 IND
3 Hugh Conway 60 St. Pats TOW Club IRL 18:43.1 IND_V
4 Bob Lakin 61 Wichita KS USA 18:47.3 IND
5 Gerald Lawson 62 Winona MN USA 18:52.8 IND_V
6 Joe Keating 61 London IRL 18:55.5 C2Log
7 Kurt Blumberg 63 Boulder CO USA 18:56.0 IND
8 Rob Codling 61 Berkhamsted GBR 18:57.6 IND
9 Rob Drury 63 Maidstone Kent GBR 18:58.4 C2Log
10 Greg Hodge 63 Traverse City MI USA 18:59.4 IND_V

If I can do 16:40, it will be 10.5 seconds per 500m faster than anyone my age and weight or older this year.

A minute and 45 seconds.



ranger

[mrfit]

Ranger Ranking Countdown:


26 days down
23 days to go
"Missions" Accomplished: 1
Ranking Distances Rows: 0