The Two Types of Training

[ranger]

The idea that the sculler who can rate the highest will win or that someone will go fast if they could rate higher is just not borne out by either theory or evidence.

What do young elite rowers rate over 5K in a 1x?

If Mike is faster at lower rates than at higher rates, then why doesn't he rate 25 spm in a 1K?

Clearly, he rates higher in a 1K because, if he does, he goes faster, quite a bit faster than he does in a 5K.

5-10 seconds per 500?

ranger

[Nosmo]

Maybe they should listen to MikeB and row at 26 spm.

Has MVB ever recommended that someone else should row at the rating he rows?

[Nosmo]

What do young elite rowers rate over 5K in a 1x?

I don't know. I'm sure it varies. My guess is it averages around 32. Your point being?

If Mike is faster at lower rates than at higher rates, then why doesn't he rate 25 spm in a 1K?

Because he is going faster. Your point being?

Clearly, he rates higher in a 1K because, if he does, he goes faster, quite a bit faster than he does in a 5K.

Everyone goes faster in a 1K then they do in a 5K. Your point being?

[ranger]

There are many trade offs involved in increasing the rating. Higher rating can lead to...muscle fatigue as well as... higher aerobic stress

Indeed.

That's why Mike doesn't row at a higher rate.

I am not saying that Mike _should_ row at a higher rate for 5K.

I am saying that he can't.

If he could, holding his technique steady, and therefore suffering the additional muscle fatigue and aerobic stress, he would be faster.

But he can't.

Holding his technique together, he can't row 5K at a higher rate on the erg, either.

That's why he pulls 5K on the erg in 1:48 rather than 1:38.

That Mike can't rate higher (and therefore go faster), either OTW or on the erg, doesn't mean that someone else his age and weight can't.

To do so, they just have to have more physical capacity, comparable to a younger rower.

Clearly, Mike's 5K on the erg shows that his physical capacity is severely limited.

The problem, I think, is his maxHR.

On the erg, Mike and I row the same rates and paces with the same HRs.

But I couldn't row 5K at 1:38 if I had a max HR of 163 bpm, either.

But for me, 163 bpm is just middlin' UT1.

AT for MIke is probably about 155 bpm.

For me, AT is 180 bpm.

My HR is around 155 bpm when I am pulling 1:48, too.

But I won't row 5K with a HR of 155 bpm.

I can row a FM with a HR of 155 bpm.

I'll row a 5K with a HR of 180 bpm.

ranger

[Nosmo]

That's why Mike doesn't row at a higher rate. I am not saying that Mike _should_ row at a higher rate for 5K. I am saying that he can't.

Nonsense.
You have no evidence that he can't only that he doesn't and wins any way.

[mikvan52]

Maybe they should listen to Mike vB and row at 26 spm.

Has MvB ever recommended that someone else should row at the rating he rows?

To answer the rhetorical question posed by Nosmo: No.

As for John: ~~ I know it's hard to keep track of more than what Rod Freed said he did years ago

to ranger: When you visit Vermont at he end of June we can experiment with different rates. It will be fun to share ideas as backed up by OTW experimentation.

Rich: Do you remember a week or two ago? I gave an account of two OTW events I did last year. In one (a 10k) I kept the rate low (24-26) and averaged 1:58 pace for the 1st 5k and then coasted in at 2:01 pace. In the second: I taped over the pace readout on my monitor in the boat and purposely rowed at 32 spm for just under 5k... My average pace was the same as in the first race when I looked afterwards...(1:58)

So:
I then asked myself: "Self? (Yes..) Why bother to row all those extra strokes to get the same pace? Are the race organizers going to give you the Rate Trophy? (No) Or, should you just try to rate it up to be a mensch? (no)"

BTW I finished first in my age group in both events. (GMS Challenge (9.5k) and The Textile Regatta \(shortened because of low water in the river at Lowell, Mass) I had to work hard in both events...probably more in the second (!)

General comment: I'd love to be young again and rate it up and all that good stuff. I do finish some OTW races with a "flourish" of 36-38 spm... Especially if I'm behind in the last stages of the race...
I agree with ranger that I am incapable of sculling at 36 spm for 5k and that that is because of diminished aerobic capacity.
In my coaching of masters: I address flaws in form first before suggesting they condition themselves to raise the rate.
Less effort and higher boat speed is one of my tenets of good sculling....

One more thing about rate in the single: OTW rowers recognize that high rate is easier to achieve when there is a tail-wind. That's a caveat for some results that don't include weather conditions...

[ranger]

That's why Mike doesn't row at a higher rate. I am not saying that Mike _should_ row at a higher rate for 5K. I am saying that he can't.

Nonsense.
You have no evidence the he can't only that he doesn't and wins any way.

The evidence is that he is _not_ yet winning the Head of the Charles.

To win, he needs to go faster.

But he can't go faster unless he rates up.

ranger

[ranger]

When you visit Vermont at he end of June we can experiment with different rates. It will be fun to share ideas as backed up by OTW experimentation.

No, experimentation with rates has no relevance for me OTW at the moment.

I am just a novice OTW.

I am still just working with the basics.

It will be relevant for me in a few years, though, when I am more competent OTW.

In a couple of weeks I will do the experiment on the erg--and that will be relevant.

I am competent on the erg.

In a 5K trial, I'll rate 32 at 11 SPI, compared to your 28 spm at 10 SPI.

The difference is eight seconds per 500m, a minute and twenty seconds.

This difference won't have anything to do with our techniques.

On the erg, you can row 11 SPI as well as the next guy, if you want to.

That's not a hugely powerful stroke at all.

32 spm is no problem, either.

32 spm is not a high rate for a 5K, even for a big heavyweight, much less a little lightweight.

The issue is the the aerobic capacity necessary to support such a stroking power and such a rate--together.

Given your aerobic capacity, at 11 SPI, you'll want to rate 25 spm for 5K on the erg.

That's all the physiological stress you can tolerate.

ranger

[ranger]

I agree with ranger that I am incapable of sculling at 36 spm for 5k and that that is because of diminished aerobic capacity.

No need to exaggerate.

I am not going to rate 36 spm for 5K, either, on the erg or on the water.

32 spm is another matter.

That is entirely possible for me, as it is for many others.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Clearly, Mike's 5K on the erg shows that his physical capacity is severely limited.

Aw, that's not very nice

Perhaps you'd better define why a 17:49 5k is "severely limited" for a 55-59 lwt...

If I remember correctly, you don't have a reported 55-59 lwt 5k... Now that's what I call "limited"
(I hold the "severely" aside for now. Perhaps when hyperbole is called for I can Whip It! (out))

[Citroen]

Clearly, Mike's 5K on the erg shows that his physical capacity is severely limited.

Aw, that's not very nice

If he was ever that rude to me I'd add him to my "foes" list and never reply to his postings ever again. But you'll just keep on feeding the troll, won't you?

http://www.c2forum.com/ucp.php?i=zebra&mode=foes

[mikvan52]

Clearly, Mike's 5K on the erg shows that his physical capacity is severely limited.

Aw, that's not very nice

If he was ever that rude to me I'd add him to my "foes" list and never reply to his postings ever again. But you'll just keep on feeding the troll, won't you?

http://www.c2forum.com/ucp.php?i=zebra&mode=foes

Il m'amuse!

Sort of like an amuse-bouche, albeit with a bad after-taste...

Some say if we tease the troll here, he won't have time to migrate to loftier exchanges elsewhere...
I am not that honorable: This (simply) amuses me.

I doubt that Rich believes anything of what he says... Isn't that one troll-trait? Bait with no hook??

If he is truly a sociopath... well.. I'm no shrink and don't know what to say.

I prefer to choose that he is the one and only, the original, (drum roll, rim shot) ranger[Bot], the man who put the "rat" in ratio, master of his own brand of weird alternate reality. Not mine!

[johnlvs2run]

Just because Ebbesen, Luini & Stephansen row at 42/44 spm doesn't mean the MVB should row the way they do, or that they will be fastest at a 40/42 when they are 60.

Of course not. It takes someone very talented and smart to be able to do this.

The idea that the sculler who can rate the highest will win or that someone will go faster if they could rate higher is just not borne out by either theory or evidence.

Sure it is. Nav posted earlier that the Italians and Danes rated 40.7 and 40.9 in a 4x on the water.
They are the best rowers in the world. No one who rows at 26 spm is going to approach them.

If you think otherwise then give me an example.

For 5K, 32 spm is not a "normal rating" for a 55-59 year old lightweight.

Amazingly, it appears to be quite exceptional. I think my 5k PB was at 33+ spm.

I think Stephansen would row a 5k at 40 spm or higher, and have no question about it at all.

[ranger]

Perhaps you'd better define why a 17:49 5k is "severely limited" for a 55-59 lwt...

The 50s lwt WR for 5K is 16:47, not 17:47.

No need for talk, just action.

The issue for me is trying to best that record.

I'll give it a go in a couple of weeks.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

I know there is a lot of talk about being fast OTW here, but, really, are there even a handful of 60s rowers who are very fast in a 1x?

When you talk about various people, the same five names or so come up.

Five?

Last year, only six 60s boats in the Head of the Charles veterans 1x race were under 22:00, 2:15 pace.

I know you want to do 1:58 for the Head of the Charles, and don't want to settle for anything short of winning, but really.

Rowing is a pretty athletic affair, no?

How many 60-year-olds can even do it, much less do it well?

Am I missing something?

Do you know even a dozen 60-year-olds who can pull 22:00 for 3 miles in a 1x?

ranger