The Two Types of Training

[whp4]

On the erg, I was four seconds under the 50s lwt WR in my first race.

And that might almost be relevant, if you had been rowing as a 50s lwt...or if you had ever matched the result since. But despite devoting nearly every spare moment of the last 8 years to your quest, you are (much) slower.

[BrianStaff]

As far as I can tell right now, the two (rowing on the erg, rowing OTW) feel the same in terms of effort, etc.

I think that is "a purpose" of the damper on the ERG: 10==1X & 1==8+

Edit: before I am questioned about that...see Andy Hodge here http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_s ... 440592.stm

[ranger]

26 spm in a single feels harder than 26 spm on the erg Of course my drag on the erg is only 100

Sure, the low drag would make a lot of difference.

For me, the load OTW feels the same as the load on the erg.

So the effort is comparable at the same rate.

I row on 145 df.

Why not raise the drag on your erg?

I _do_ think you would find that your rate would fall significantly if you rowed 5Ks on the erg at a higher drag, comparable to the load OTW.

Pulling 11.5 SPI, as I do, I think you would prefer about 25 spm for 5K, rather than 28 spm.

This would underline your problem with rate.

I think I will rate 32 for 5K, on both the erg and on the water.

Given that you are much more skilled than I am OTW, though, the pace you hold doing 25 spm OTW will be comparable to my pace at 32 spm.

When you are rowing your best and taking a full stroke at a substantial drag on the erg, it looks as though you keep about a 10 seconds/500m gap between your erg times and your OTW times at the same rate.

My gap is twice that.

So this underlines how much I have to learn.

I suspect that your equipment and rigging is much better than mine, too.

This might make quite a bit of difference.

Nonetheless, if I can rate 32 spm, both OTW and on the erg, this is _very_ encouraging for my long-term prospects.

I have _lots_ of room for improvement.

And I am getting better and better every day.

I will be _vastly_ better OTW after this year than I was after last year and are right now.

The challenge for you physiologically is to rate 32 spm on the erg for 5K at a substantial drag and therefore a pace that would be comparable to rating 32 spm OTW.

11.5 SPI @ 32 spm is 1:38 pace, ten seconds faster per 500m than you erg a 5K at low drag, 28 spm, and 10 SPI.

In rowing, physical capacity is just as important as technique, as the steady decline in time with age, both OTW and on the erg, illustrates.

The Head of the Charles is done 2:20 seconds faster by Open 1x boats than by 60s 1x boats.

That's 14 seconds per 500m.

There is _exactly the same_ gap between the best Open and 60s ergers over 5K.

No difference.

Rob Waddell does 5K on the erg in 14:58.

T.J. Osterling does 5K on the erg in 17:18.

2:20 seconds difference, on the button.

14 seconds per 500m.

I suppose I am putting this to the test:

If a 60s erger could narrow that gap to four seconds per 500m rather than 14 seconds per 500m, what then?

This would be an advantage that would also transfer to the water.

Then _overall_ speed OTW would depend on technique.

So, OTW, technique is not at all the only issue.

At the moment, if you rate 25 spm and I rate 32 spm, we go the same pace OTW.

If (for physiological reasons) that is it for you in terms of rate, then it is probably also it for you in terms of pace, given your high level of skill right now.

But as I get better technically and find more and more length and other sorts of boatspeed with my OTW technique, and as I get better equipment and find the best rigging, I should continue to get faster and faster OTW for some time, perhaps for five years or so, perhaps for as long as ten, even as I age.

From here on out, I suspect you'll just slow down, as your physical capacities decline even further.

ranger

[mrfit]

Ranger Ranking Countdown

days down: 25
days left: 24
pieces ranked: 0

[ranger]

Mike--

If you want to measure your physical capacity for OTW rowing by using the erg, put the dial on 1:40 @ 30-32 spm at 145 df. and see how far you can go repeatedly (e.g., 40 reps or so) before your HR hits your anaerobic threshold (143 bpm).

Keep doing these intervals, handling down when your HR hits your anaerobic threshold (and then paddling a comparable distance) before doing another interval.

See what you get in terms of distance for each interval.

The best young lightweight ergers, of course, don't need to handle down at all.

They can just keep rowing, 1:40 @ 30-32 spm for a HM with their HR under their anaerobic threshold.

I suspect that you'll get to about 300m, on the average. about a minute.

The best young lightweight rowers would get to 300m repeatedly at 1:26 @ 45 spm before their HR hit their anaerobic threshold.

That's the 14 seconds per 500m of physical capacity that you have lost with age.

The best young lightweight rowers would have an anaerobic threshold of 180 bpm, not 143 bpm.

ranger

[ranger]

Here's a shot of my threshold HR. Final 30 minutes of a cycling tt around 180 bpm. This HURTS. (My max is 195, age 43).

Spectacular stuff, especially for your age; and of course, a refutation of NavHaz's claim that no one can keep their HR steady at your anaerobic threshold for extended periods.

Zillions of folks can do it.

90% HRR!

My anaerobic threshold is only 87% HRR.

In any event, both of those numbers are pretty high for old guys with a HR of 190 bpm or more.

So what do you do for 60min on the erg?

You should beat the hell out of it, if you have any talent at all for rowing, and any effectiveness and efficiency with your technique.

At 180 bpm, I am going at least 1:36.

That would be 18.6K for 60min.



ranger

[ranger]

32 spm is not a high rate for a 5K at all.

Egg beater?

Hardly.

I suspect that all of the best young ergers and OTW rowers rate at least 32 spm in a 5K.

They rate close to 40 spm for 2K.

Doing a 5K at 23 spm, or even 25 spm, is trudging.

Rating so low in a row as short as 5K can only be the result of some sort of massive aerobic deficit (e.g., because of aging) or some severe mechanical limitation (massive size, awkwardness, etc.).

ranger

[NavigationHazard]

Muppet. I have never made such a claim.

[ranger]

Compared to those who row as well, there is no virtue at all in rating low.

If you rate low, you just parade your limitations.

And are slow.

ranger

[ranger]

Compared to those who row as well, there is no virtue at all in rating low.

If you rate low, you just parade your limitations.

And are slow.

ranger

[ranger]

Muppet. I have never made such a claim.

Your claim is that if HR is held constant at your anaerobic threshold, performance must decline over time.

Nope.

Stupid stuff.

Zillions of folks can work at their anaerobic threshold for prolonged periods, keeping both their HR and their performance constant.

That is what endurance sports are all about, if you woke up and noticed.

The fact that you can't do it, because you don't train for it, or have no talent for it, has no bearing at all on the issue.

ranger

[hjs]

I was _very_ pleased with my first outing OTW this year.
Everything felt great.
I was holding a nice 2:10 @ 26 SPM.

From the Ann Arbor News, April 6, 2010:

There was a mysterious fish kill on the Huron River this morning. Sergeant H. Mackerel of the Department of Natural Resources reported that the fish appeared to have died from blunt force trauma. There was also serious erosion along the shores caused by rogue waves. Several eyewitnesses reported someone or something thrashing about in a boat, violently bouncing up and down, creating huge splashes. The investigation is continuing.

[mikvan52]

Compared to those who row as well, there is no virtue at all in rating low.

If you rate low, you just parade your limitations.

And are slow.

ranger

Interesting that you want to discuss virtue rather than speed.

Take a look at these Head of the Charles records...
Isn't it odd that there isn't a mention of rates......


Master Singles Men: Robert Spousta 18:16.9 (1984) Women: Cynthia Matthes 19:55.24 (1997)
Master Doubles Men: M. Smith/ D. Gorriaran 17:13.68 (2003) Women: T. Zarzeczny-Bell/ S. Remmler 19:00.316 (2007)
Master Fours Men: Belfast Rowing Club 17:03.38 (1997) Women: Portland Boat Club 18:54.35 (1995)
Master Eights Men: Leander Boat Club, Canada 15:16.13 (2001) Women: Long Beach RA 17:14.17 (2001)
50-59 Grand Master Singles Men: Lawrence Klecatsky 18:54.3 (1992) Women: Judy Geer 21:30.930 (2007)
Senior Master Singles Men: Gregory Benning 18:19.758 (2007) Women: Margarita Jekabsons (now Zezza) 20:18.04 (2003)
Senior-Master Doubles Men: R. Haberl/ R. Slocum 18:06.910 (2007) Women: J. Linse/ S. Kinne 19:53.749 (2007)
Senior-Master Fours Men: Toronto Sculling Club 17:25.52 (2003) Women: Watercat Rowing Club 19:48.392 (2007)
Senior-Master Eights Team Attager 15:43.490 (2007) Women: 1980 Rowing Club 18:00.427 (2007)
60-69 Veteran Singles Men: C. Collins 19:24.329 (adjusted) (2001) Women: Brook Stevens 23:25.66 (adjusted) (2007) * probable raw time for Collins 20:28.329 (there have been faster raw times....such as Dietz last year)

Note:
Lawrence Klecatsky’s 18:54.3 (1992) for 50-59 works out to be 1:58.1 pace.

"Long and low" can win it...

For instance: I watched the 60-69 men video feed last year and noticed that in 60-69 men : Jim Dietz (the winner) sculled at a lower rate than 2nd place, Jack Meyer...

Is this a "freak of nature"!

I'll take 1:58.0 pace the easiest way I can get it

[NavigationHazard]

As far as I can tell right now, the two (rowing on the erg, rowing OTW) feel the same in terms of effort, etc.

I think that is "a purpose" of the damper on the ERG: 10==1X & 1==8+

Edit: before I am questioned about that...see Andy Hodge here http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_s ... 440592.stm

Hodgie is wrong. Period.

[NavigationHazard]

Muppet. I have never made such a claim.

Your claim is that if HR is held constant at your anaerobic threshold, performance must decline over time. Nope.
Stupid stuff. Zillions of folks can work at their anaerobic threshold for prolonged periods, keeping both their HR and their performance constant. That is what endurance sports are all about, if you woke up and noticed.
The fact that you can't do it, because you don't train for it, or have no talent for it, has no bearing at all on the issue.

ranger

Response bumped over to the appropriate thread.