The Two Types of Training

[NavigationHazard]

BTW, a great training game that I am starting to play now, and will be playing from now on until WIRC 2011, is what might be called "aerobic 500s." In a 2K, I think most of us would like to stay aerobic for about 500m. So, if you wear a heart rate monitor and do 500s, a nice pace to find for training is just the pace that lets you get to the end of a 500m interval when your HR reaches your anaerobic threshold. If you are careful not to go over your anaerobic threshold and you take pretty generous rest (e.g., paddle a 500m in between), you should be able to do these 500s for an hour and a half--20 x 500m. This session is a good litmus test for your race pace, I think. 20 x 500m (paddle a 500m in between) is done at 2K. Over the next month or so, I think I will get to 20 x 500m @ 1:34, rating about 37 spm. That's about 11.5 SPI. If Mike VB did 500s at 1:42.5, his 2K race pace, I think he would find that his HR would reach his anaerobic threshold, 143 bpm, at the end of each 500m interval. [obnoxious spacing elided].

ranger

Translation: 'I did one (1) 500m piece today wearing my HR belt. I managed 1:34something r37 and saw 172 bpm just before I fell off the erg convulsing and my wife called the paramedics again. Never mind that I was leaking lactic acid from every pore and orifice over the last 100m. Since I imagine my threshold to be 172 bpm, I can delude myself that I kept my HR under my threshold. I'd post a screenshot, but I can't stand up to find the camera and there are no batteries and I dont know how to work complicated buttons and my button finger is sprained and I'm out of muscle grease for my frozen feet and anyway it's slower than MVB. I'll wait until I am fully trained and do 20 of these. '

[ranger]

I managed 1:34something r37 and saw 172 bpm

Yep.

I get to right around 172 bpm if I do a 500m at 1:34.

172 is my anaerobic threshold.

So these 500s aren't hard at all.

They are entirely aerobic.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Mike--

You seem to think that 5K is something distinct from 2K.

Yes. You are right. 2k is not the same as 5k in my book.

Why does Michael Sevigny beat Mahe Drysdale at the HOCR when Sevigny cannot hold a candle to Drysdale at 2k? Why has Drysdale not won the HOCR... It may be because he's best suited for the 2k...

As for formulae ("is done at")...
Please provide comprehensive data and provide margins of error...

For all serious ergers with extensive and balanced training, 5K is done at about 2K + 5, +/- 1.

"is done at" has now become "is done at about"
What's the margin of seconds above and below Richard?

And....Please answer why you will not post a workout 5k with 10 splits and HR data for each one?

Is is because such data would be at variance with how you portray yourself here on "Fantasy Island"?

[mikvan52]

If Mike VB did 500s at 1:42.5, his 2K race pace, I think he would find that his HR would reach his anaerobic threshold, 143 bpm, at the end of each 500m interval.

ranger

I do not do 20 x 500m.. Perhaps I should if my goal was to just be a "chain-jerker" like you

Here's some REAL data of the kind of intervals I do. Note HR as compared to my 2007 AT of 143 bpm... I do not know what my AT is now in 2010.
Want to test w/me when you come east? (right!)

"Everything I do surrounds these pieces of my life that often change
"
-My Song -Brandi Carlile (opening lyrics)

Workout
Objective:
2 x 500 & 2 x 250 at 30-34 spm with 5' active rests.
to simulate sections of the race...

I did this same workout a year ago and it served me well in sharpening for WIRC.

1: warm up for 10'
2: do 3 x 15 on/ 15 off

v500m/5:00r...4
Feb 16 2009
4:47.6 - 1500 - 1:35.8 - 33spm - 147bpm 85% HRR

• 500 - 1:38.9 - 30 - 147
  ...r5:00 - 761 m - down to 98 bpm
  .
• 500 - 1:38.8 - 30 - 151
  ...r5:00 - 728 - 104
  .
• 250 - 1:31.4 - 34 - 150
  ...r5:00 - 710 - 97
  .
• 250 - 1:29.0 - 39 - 141
  ...r2:00 - 244 - 99

cooldown for 10'

500m just gets me into AT these days
BTW: compare to last year

(from February 2008)

OVERVIEW: 4:52.6 --- 1500m --- 1:37.5 avg --- 32 spm --- 145 bpm

• 1:39.8 --- 500m --- 1:39.8 --- 30 --- 145
  5' rest --- 697m --- 95 bpm
• 1:39.1 --- 500m --- 1:39.1 --- 30 --- 149 (90% of max)
  5' rest --- 674m --- 94 bpm
• 0:46.9 --- 250m --- 1:33.8 --- 35 --- 143
  5' rest ---- 747m --- 96 bpm
• 0:46.8 --- 250m --- 1:33.6 --- 33 --- 146
  5' cool --- 967m --- 109 bpm
  

[ranger]

What's the margin of seconds above and below Richard?

Read again, Mike.

I just said, +/- 1 second per 500m.

ranger

[ranger]

Here's some REAL data of the kind of intervals I do. (right!)

Feb 16 2009

[*]500 - 1:38.9 - 30 - 147
...r5:00 - 761 m - down to 98 bpm
.
[*]500 - 1:38.8 - 30 - 151
...r5:00 - 728 - 104

[*]1:39.1 --- 500m --- 1:39.1 --- 30 --- 149 (90% of max)

Especially for "aerobic" 500s, average HR isn't the relevant stat.

The relevant stat is your HR at the _end_ of each interval.

It shouldn't be over your anaerobic threshold.

If you average 150 bpm on these pieces, you must be at your max HR at the end of each interval, perhaps for quite a while.

So these are AN pieces for you, severely so.

When does your HR get over your anaerobic threshold on these 500s at 1:39?

200m?

What pace to you have to slow down to in order to _end_ a 500m at your anaerobic threshold, 143 bpm?

1:42.5?

ranger

[NavigationHazard]

What's most immediately relevant is your complete inability to do 20 x 500m r37 @ 1:34/ paddle a 500 @ 3:05 average pace -- with your HR peaking at but not exceeding your factual threshold association on every work rep.

For starters you don't know what your factual threshold-associated HR is. Then there's your shortfall in requisite physical capacity.

Were you actually to try this workout on strict criteria you wouldn't last three work reps. Even if we were to give you an ending HR of 172 BPM on your work intervals (which likely would rise to 175 or so in the first few seconds after you've completed 500m before starting slowly to fall as you continue rowing without a pause), you could not make it past 5 or 6 work reps on three minutes five seconds of active recovery. Had you actually tried this workout before launching on your current round of postings about it, you'd have realized just how far your physiological reality is from your fantasy.

Can you prove you can do even one 500m piece at 1:34 r37 with a peak HR of 172 bpm (let alone your factual threshold, right now more likely 155 bpm or so)? Hint: you can train a video camera on the monitor, which will show pace, stroke rate and HR for the piece in real time. Didn't think so, lord Glendower.

EDIT: and while I think about it, Nik Fleming's 40-49 MHW 5k WR was done at his 40-49 MHW 2k WR + 6.4. Perhaps he was not a serious erger? Inasmuch as he's the current record holder at both distances it'd be hard to sustain an argument that his results somehow are imbalanced. By definition they represent the limit of what's ever been done for those distances in that age/gender/weight category. That won't stop you from trying to make one, I know....

[ranger]

What's most immediately relevant is your complete inability to do 20 x 500m r37 @ 1:34/ paddle a 500 @ 3:05 average pace -- with your HR peaking at but not exceeding your factual threshold association on every work rep.

For starters you don't know what your factual threshold-associated HR is. Then there's your shortfall in requisite physical capacity.

Were you actually to try this workout on strict criteria you wouldn't last three work reps. Even if we were to give you an ending HR of 172 BPM on your work intervals (which likely would rise to 175 or so in the first few seconds after you've completed 500m before starting slowly to fall as you continue rowing without a pause), you could not make it past 5 or 6 work reps on three minutes five seconds of active recovery. Had you actually tried this workout before launching on your current round of postings about it, you'd have realized just how far your physiological reality is from your fantasy.

Can you prove you can do even one 500m piece at 1:34 r37 with a peak HR of 172 bpm (let alone your factual threshold, right now more likely 155 bpm or so)? Hint: you can train a video camera on the monitor, which will show pace, stroke rate and HR for the piece in real time. Didn't think so, lord Glendower.

EDIT: and while I think about it, Nik Fleming's 40-49 MHW 5k WR was done at his 40-49 MHW 2k WR + 6.4. Perhaps he was not a serious erger? Inasmuch as he's the current record holder at both distances it'd be hard to sustain an argument that his results somehow are imbalanced. By definition they represent the limit of what's ever been done for those distances in that age/gender/weight category. That won't stop you from trying to make one, I know....

True.

I haven't done the workout yet.

But it's coming up.

In 2003, I did 20 x 500m (paddle a 500m in between) @ 1:36, albeit at 40 spm (10 SPI).

I am quite a bit better than that now.

I think I'll now do 1:34 for the session, and at a lower rate (37 spm).

ranger

[ranger]

MIke--

No wonder you can't do 5K @ 1:39!

If you tried, you'd be a your max HR after 500m, perhaps sooner.



ranger

[mikvan52]

Rich:
(You) Read again:
Where is your data?

THIS THREAD is about your training. I remain perplexed that you are unable to post data.

I tell you what:
I'll go to the gym and do as many 500's on the erg at 1:42 (up to 20) and report my hr at the end along with the times.

You do the same.

Let's see how many we report...

I Know... you "have to sharpen".. or "coming up soon".. or "I think"....

You are faster than me, Rich on the erg at 2k... I think I have the edge on the grueling stuff....

This challenge is good until the end of april only.... I have no intention of erging during the lead up to OTW racing this summer.

By the way: If you understood PM4 interval data... you'd know that the monitor only records the HR at the end of each piece.... So what you say above about averages in what I reported is wrong.
I didn't realize just how feckless you are

[NavigationHazard]

Why are you perplexed? Occam's razor -- he has no results to report.

[ranger]

Why are you perplexed? Occam's razor -- he has no results to report.

Sure, it was an old one, but I just reported one.

When I was your age, I did 20 x 500m @ 1:36 (paddle a 500m in between).

Nice!

I think I'll now do 1:34.

My fitness is pretty much the same, but I am now quite a bit more effective and efficient.

Back in 2003, I didn't know how to row.

I now row well.

ranger

[NavigationHazard]

You just reported something allegedly done in 2003, which you cannot document (either times or weight at the time) and which even in anecdote form has no associated HR.

And 2003 is 7 years ago. If you are 59 now you were 52 then. I am not 52.

[mikvan52]

Rich:
(You) Read again:
Where is your data?

THIS THREAD is about your training.

I tell you what:
I'll go to the gym and do as many 500's on the erg at 1:42 (up to 20) and report my hr at the end along with the times.

You do the same.

Let's see how many we report...

If Mike VB did 500s at 1:42.5, his 2K race pace, I think he would find that his HR would reach his anaerobic threshold, 143 bpm, at the end of each 500m interval.

ranger

I do not do 20 x 500m.. Perhaps I should if my goal was to just be a "chain-jerker" like you

Here's some more REAL data of the kind of intervals I do.... with a link below for a photo of one of the intervals

2/18/2008
Practiced race warm-up.

session called for 500 - 500 - 250 - 250 w/5' rests

OVERVIEW: 4:52.6 --- 1500m --- 1:37.5 avg --- 32 spm --- 145 bpm

• 1:39.8 --- 500m --- 1:39.8 --- 30 --- 145
  5' rest --- 697m --- 95 bpm
• 1:39.1 --- 500m --- 1:39.1 --- 30 --- 149 (90% of max)
  5' rest --- 674m --- 94 bpm
• 0:46.9 --- 250m --- 1:33.8 --- 35 --- 143
  5' rest ---- 747m --- 96 bpm
• 0:46.8 --- 250m --- 1:33.6 --- 33 --- 146
  5' cool --- 967m --- 109 bpm
  15' cool --- 3722 --- 131 bpm (75% of max) --- 20 spm
  (all: logcard data)

I'm rested (and getting restive).

Mary took some shots of some interesting heart rate data during the four 5' recovery intervals.

My first point:
Roy remains the best among the three of us, Rich!



My second point:
Want to see a real HR curve as it relates to the other data above?

1:33.6 with active rest going down to 97 quite quickly (indicating good conditioning and other strengths) (2/18/2008)


This picture relates to the very last one of the intervals listed above.
Do you recovery as fast as I do? Please don't post what you "think".... I'd like verification, please...

Nav:
We both know this exchange twixt ranger and me serves little purpose as range refuses steadfastly to document anything other than "JUST ROW" data w/o HR...

.... oh, well...

[Citroen]

Nav:
We both know this exchange twixt ranger and me serves little purpose as range refuses steadfastly to document anything other than "JUST ROW" data w/o HR...

.... oh, well...

So why do you bother? Stop feeding the troll. Simply ignore him and he'll tumble back into the obscurity of his cellar.