The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2010, 6:32 am

hjs wrote:Dr. Fritz Hagerman, an exercise physiologist at Ohio University, said he had learned from more than three decades of studying world class rowers that the whole idea of a formula to predict an individual's maximum heart rate was ludicrous. Even sillier, he said, is the common notion that the heart rate is an indication of fitness.

Some people get blood to their muscles by pushing out large amounts every time their hearts contract, he said. Others accomplish the same thing by contracting their hearts at fast rates. As a result, Dr. Hagerman said, he has seen Olympic rowers in their 20's with maximum heart rates of 220. And he has seen others on the same team and with the same ability, but who get blood to their tissues by pumping hard, with maximum rates of just 160.
Sure.

But I am talking about 60-year-olds, not 20-year-olds, and I am talking about someone with a resting HR of 40 bpm, not 70 bpm.

On the average, with age, your maxHR falls about a beat per minute per year.

So, a rower with a maxHR of 200 bpm at 20 years old tends to have a max HR of 160 bpm at 60 spm, even though that rower's resting HR is the same.

This loss of aerobic capacity is devastating, and translates into a loss of a second or so over 2K per year.

So, a lightweight who can pull 6:00 for 2K at 20 can only pull 6:40 for 2K at 60.

My maxHR is still 190 bpm, with a resting HR of 40 bpm.

That is, I have the aerobic capacity of a 30-year-old.

Your citing of Hagerman is irrelevant.

He has no study that bears on the issue.

Has he studied a population of 60-year-olds with resting HRs of 40 bpm and maxHR's of 190 bpm?

No.

Why?

Because they are disappearingly rare.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on April 2nd, 2010, 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

mrfit
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by mrfit » April 2nd, 2010, 7:14 am

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leadville
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by leadville » April 2nd, 2010, 8:43 am

mikvan52 wrote:
whp4 wrote:Just found this video showing what some lucky folks in Ann Arbor are likely to experience with our hero in their 8!

You beat me to the punch!
:lol:

I was going to title it: Eight ranger clones OTW. :mrgreen: .........

Next up Ursula Grobler and her millions of meters OTErg :wink:
well, their catches were ranger-esque...
Returned to sculling after an extended absence; National Champion 2010, 2011 D Ltwt 1x, PB 2k 7:04.5 @ 2010 Crash-b

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NavigationHazard
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by NavigationHazard » April 2nd, 2010, 8:50 am

feckandclueless wrote:On the average, with age, your maxHR falls about a beat per minute per year.

So, a rower with a maxHR of 200 bpm at 20 years old tends to have a max HR of 160 bpm at 60 spm [sic], even though that rower's resting HR is the same.

This loss of aerobic capacity is devastating, and translates into a loss of a second or so over 2K per year....

ranger
At 60 spm?

MaxHR falls more like 0.7 beats per minute per year on average (the Tanaka equation is 208 - 0.7 * age). For endurance-trained subjects, Tanaka's meta-analysis found the prediction formula to be 206 - 0.7 * age; in a laboratory validation study of 229 endurance-trained subjects they found the formula to be 205 - 0.6 * age. These suggest your factual maxHR to be around 170 -172 bpm you seem to think is your anaerobic threshold-associated HR.
67 MH 6' 6"

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » April 2nd, 2010, 8:53 am

NavigationHazard wrote:These suggest your factual maxHR to be around 170 -172 bpm you seem to think is your anaerobic threshold-associated HR.
Hardly.

Saw 180 bpm last week, not even working very hard.

Saw 185 bpm last winter.

I can row for an hour and a half with my HR flat at 172 bpm.

Very little aerobic distress at 172 bpm.

Not even AT.

Top-end UT1.

1:44 @ 26 spm

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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NavigationHazard
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by NavigationHazard » April 2nd, 2010, 9:04 am

An hour and a half with your HR flat at 172 bpm, is it now?

Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep.
Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them?
Glendower: Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command The devil
Hotspur: And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil— By telling the truth. Tell truth and shame the devil.

Henry IV, Part I Act 3, scene 1, 52–58

You're not fooling anyone. If you actually saw the sorts of HRs you claim you can achieve at the paces you say you see them at and the durations you claim to be able to sustain them at, you'd be able to provide some evidence. A screenshot, for example, showing HR and split averages. You don't post anything because your boasting about it is completely Glendowerian.
67 MH 6' 6"

nysaag
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by nysaag » April 2nd, 2010, 9:07 am

Has Ranger paid his debts yet?

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hjs
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by hjs » April 2nd, 2010, 9:12 am

nysaag wrote:Has Ranger paid his debts yet?

Nope not one cent............................

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by PaulH » April 2nd, 2010, 9:15 am

ranger wrote: I can row for an hour and a half with my HR flat at 172 bpm.
...
1:44 @ 26 spm
Oh ranger, you are one for hiding your light under a bushel! Congratulations on the new HM pb! I make that around 1 hour, 13 minutes and 8 seconds, which is a great achievement. Well done!

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hjs
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by hjs » April 2nd, 2010, 9:19 am

ranger wrote:
Some people get blood to their muscles by pushing out large amounts every time their hearts contract, he said. Others accomplish the same thing by contracting their hearts at fast rates. As a result, Dr. Hagerman said, he has seen Olympic rowers in their 20's with maximum heart rates of 220. And he has seen others on the same team and with the same ability, but who get blood to their tissues by pumping hard, with maximum rates of just 160.
Sure.

But I am talking about 60-year-olds, not 20-year-olds, and I am talking about someone with a resting HR of 40 bpm, not 70 bpm.

On the average, with age, your maxHR falls about a beat per minute per year.

So, a rower with a maxHR of 200 bpm at 20 years old tends to have a max HR of 160 bpm at 60 spm, even though that rower's resting HR is the same.

This loss of aerobic capacity is devastating, and translates into a loss of a second or so over 2K per year.

So, a lightweight who can pull 6:00 for 2K at 20 can only pull 6:40 for 2K at 60.

My maxHR is still 190 bpm, with a resting HR of 40 bpm.

That is, I have the aerobic capacity of a 30-year-old.


ranger
Some people get blood to their muscles by pushing out large amounts every time their hearts contract, he said. Others accomplish the same thing by contracting their hearts at fast rates

what don,t you get from this :lol: , you simply have a hamsterhart !

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jliddil
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by jliddil » April 2nd, 2010, 9:34 am

chgoss wrote:Graham Benton
6'6, 102kg (224lbs)
http://concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0&start=30

actually, a pretty skinny dude for being that tall.. I'm 6'2" 205.. :oops: need to update my signature.. :oops:
I'm 6'5'' 178lbs. :shock:
JD
Age: 51; H: 6"5'; W: 172 lbs;

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chgoss
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by chgoss » April 2nd, 2010, 9:38 am

ranger wrote: I can row for an hour and a half with my HR flat at 172 bpm.
...
1:44 @ 26 spm
Translation: "I can row for 1.5 hours, doing short periods of 1:44, resting in between, with my HR never going over 172"

Rich is NOT saying, that he can row for 1.5 hours straight at 1:44 for a total distance of 25,961m, with his HR never going over 172.

Most people would designate that as purposefully misleading language...
52 M 6'2" 200 lbs 2k-7:03.9
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chgoss
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by chgoss » April 2nd, 2010, 9:41 am

jliddil wrote:
chgoss wrote:Graham Benton
6'6, 102kg (224lbs)
http://concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0&start=30

actually, a pretty skinny dude for being that tall.. I'm 6'2" 205.. :oops: need to update my signature.. :oops:
I'm 6'5'' 178lbs. :shock:
Stringbean!!! wow.. must be nice :D :D
as I sit here eating my oatmeal.. which I HATE :evil: In my never ending quest to see something under 200 :roll: :roll:
52 M 6'2" 200 lbs 2k-7:03.9
1 Corinthians 15:3-8

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jliddil
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by jliddil » April 2nd, 2010, 9:45 am

NavigationHazard wrote:An hour and a half with your HR flat at 172 bpm, is it now?

You don't post anything because your boasting about it is completely Glendowerian.
I think he thinks he is a Tour de France rider. I want him to get a Polar RS400 or a Sunnto t6 and post beat by beat data with R-R interval analysis.
JD
Age: 51; H: 6"5'; W: 172 lbs;

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jliddil
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by jliddil » April 2nd, 2010, 9:49 am

chgoss wrote:
jliddil wrote:
chgoss wrote:Graham Benton
6'6, 102kg (224lbs)
http://concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.p ... 0&start=30

actually, a pretty skinny dude for being that tall.. I'm 6'2" 205.. :oops: need to update my signature.. :oops:
I'm 6'5'' 178lbs. :shock:
Stringbean!!! wow.. must be nice :D :D
as I sit here eating my oatmeal.. which I HATE :evil: In my never ending quest to see something under 200 :roll: :roll:
I used to be in the 155 range when I was "young". I was looking back at a full blown stress test in an exercise phys lab I had at 26 and then my heart rate maxed out at 180 and I ran all the time. So I'm doomed to never be a world class athlete. :mrgreen:
JD
Age: 51; H: 6"5'; W: 172 lbs;

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