The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 31st, 2010, 3:10 pm

lancs wrote:
ranger wrote: My pb is 1:43; my target, 1:39.
Though as you've demonstrated with your racing, your 2k has declined from 6.28 or so to 6.41. I'd be therefore interested in seeing what your 5k has declined to over the same period.. :)
You don't find out what you can do at your best for 5K by just racing it.

You prepare for 5K trials with loads of hard distance rowing and then longer trials--FM, HM, 60min, 30min, 6K.

Sounds like you don't know how to train.

ragner
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 31st, 2010, 3:12 pm

JimR wrote:
So a person with a target of 1:39 and a pb of 1:43 can't do 1:44 ... but they go on and on about how much better they are now.

No wonder everyone is confused!

JimR
If you don't know how to train, nothing I am doing makes sense.

So it goes.

Good luck with your racing.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

Nosmo
10k Poster
Posts: 1595
Joined: November 21st, 2006, 3:39 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Nosmo » March 31st, 2010, 3:21 pm

nosmo wrote:But he still says incredibly stupid and obviously false things.
ranger wrote: None of this is relevant to me.

There are no parallels.

QED

User avatar
chgoss
10k Poster
Posts: 1060
Joined: March 25th, 2006, 1:38 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by chgoss » March 31st, 2010, 4:10 pm

ranger wrote:
lancs wrote:
ranger wrote: My pb is 1:43; my target, 1:39.
Though as you've demonstrated with your racing, your 2k has declined from 6.28 or so to 6.41. I'd be therefore interested in seeing what your 5k has declined to over the same period.. :)
You don't find out what you can do at your best for 5K by just racing it.
Translation: "Doing a timed 5k as quick as you can today, doesn't necessarily predict what you will be capable of doing at some point in the future"

- Perhaps not, but it certainly tells you what you can do today, given where you are at right now :-)
- When Rich uses phrases like "I can do a sub 16 5k", he's not saying that he could do it today.. he's saying that he thinks he can do it at some point in the future. Most folks would call that purposefully misleading language.
52 M 6'2" 200 lbs 2k-7:03.9
1 Corinthians 15:3-8

User avatar
Citroen
SpamTeam
Posts: 8008
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:28 pm
Location: A small cave in deepest darkest Basingstoke, UK

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Citroen » March 31st, 2010, 4:15 pm

chgoss wrote: - When Rich uses phrases like "I can do a sub 16 5k", he's not saying that he could do it today.. he's saying that he thinks he can do it at some point in the future. Most folks would call that purposefully misleading language.
It's not "purposefully misleading language", it's Rangerspeak. A rough translation is "I pulled one or two strokes today at 1:36.0 but I couldn't be ars*d to take a screenshot for the naysayers."

The main reason we don't get the screen shots is because they reveal how slow he's really going. Rangerspeak allows him to try to convince us that he's doing productive training and not just hours of junk metres.

snowleopard
6k Poster
Posts: 936
Joined: September 23rd, 2009, 4:16 am

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by snowleopard » March 31st, 2010, 4:37 pm

chgoss wrote:When Rich uses phrases like "I can do a sub 16 5k", he's not saying that he could do it today.. he's saying that he thinks he can do it at some point in the future. Most folks would call that purposefully misleading language.
That just about sums it up down the years. A lot of Just Rows entered in the rankings as if they were continuous. A lot of workouts reported that ranger didn't actually do but wanted to be capable of doing.

In rangerthought it wasn't dishonest because our hero was going to be able to match or beat those times as continuous rows at some point in the future. He just assumed that if he carried on rowing he would get better and as a result meet the [mis]reported standard and redeem himself by being able to report them honestly; as required by IND_V.

Hasn't happened yet :idea:

User avatar
johnlvs2run
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 4012
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 1:13 pm
Location: California Central Coast
Contact:

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by johnlvs2run » March 31st, 2010, 4:46 pm

Nosmo wrote:the vast majority of time he races very poorly--goes out too fast blows up and does not finish. Some one who does this mostly likely does not know what they are doing.
John Rupp wrote:I disagree with this. Olympic weightlifters often miss lifts in competition, in fact it is more common to miss than to complete all six lifts perfectly.
Nosmo wrote: Not relevant.
Well then your point is not relevant.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 31st, 2010, 4:57 pm

chgoss wrote:Perhaps not, but it certainly tells you what you can do today, given where you are at right now
For some, I would think for the majority, training is done in cycles, moving from basic fitness, to foundational rowing of various sorts (Level 4, UT2, RWBs, etc.), to UT1/threshold distance rowing, to AT efforts, to race pace work, to anaerobic intervals.

When you are at any of these levels, you can test how you are doing, but to be meaningful, the test must relate to the level you are working at (or some previous level), not some subsequent level.

For instance, for me, good tests for basic fitness are things like 1000 sit ups, an hour of jumping rope, a ten-mile run, a 50-mile bike, 30 pull ups, etc.--done in groups, daily, with no soreness, difficulty, etc. I do all of these pretty regularly, usually on a daily basis, and often in combination.

My basic fitness is sky-high.

When I was done with my RWBs work on technique and stroking power, I did 500r30 @ 1:30 and 1Kr24 @ 1:38. That's pulling 16 SPI. I suspect that no one can do either of these unless, when they are fully trained, they can pull a 2K under 6:30, perhaps under 6:20.

I now row well.

I am now getting ready for longer distance trials--FM, HM, 60min, 10K, 30min. This tests how you are doing at UT1. 2K predictions can be read right off of distance rows: FM is 2K + 14, HM is 2K + 11, 60min is 2K + 10, 10K is 2K + 8, 30min is 2K + 7.

I think that my distance rowing has been going well, but we'll have to wait for the results of my distance trials this month to see how well.

A good test of AT is 4 x 2K. 5K and 6K trials are also AT. These tests are also 2K predictors. 4 x 2K is done at 2K + 4. 5K is done at 2K + 5. 6K is done at 2K + 6.

A good test of TR is 20 x 500m. This workout is done at 2K.

A good test of AN is 8 x 500 (3:30 rest), which is done at 2K - 4, or 4 x 1K, which is done at 2K.

Each of these bouts of testing should be preceded by a considerable period of training at that level, During this training, you try to groove into the work demanded and work as hard at it as you can until your times plateau.

You are not ready to do your best 2K until you have done all of these things.

You don't test where you are at 2K when you are working on basic fitness or foundational training, etc.

That's silly.

When you are working on algebra in middle school, you don't take a college-level calculus exam to see how competent you are in math, although doing some arithmetic might still be relevant.

I suspect you get ten seconds or so over 2K from each of these six levels of training, as you do them in sequence, to a total of a minute over 2K.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 31st, 2010, 5:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

snowleopard
6k Poster
Posts: 936
Joined: September 23rd, 2009, 4:16 am

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by snowleopard » March 31st, 2010, 5:26 pm

John Rupp wrote:Olympic weightlifters often miss lifts in competition.
Sure. And if you miss a heat in an Olympic rowing competition you lose.

So what's your point? You think losing is a positive sporting outcome?

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 31st, 2010, 5:45 pm

ice-pussy wrote:You think losing is a positive sporting outcome?
There is nothing wrong with participating and losing.

Depending on your purposes, sure, it can be _very_ positive.

Races can be used for all sorts of things--to get a good workout, to gain experience, to make weight, to be with others, to join the fun, to try your best, to travel to another city and see the venue, etc.

As it turns out, one of my races this year produced the best 2K in my age and weight division--by six seconds--even though I didn't prepare for it, and therefore couldn't possibly row my best.

Nice!

My racing last year had a similar result (i.e., the best 2K in my age and weight division).

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 31st, 2010, 5:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

snowleopard
6k Poster
Posts: 936
Joined: September 23rd, 2009, 4:16 am

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by snowleopard » March 31st, 2010, 5:48 pm

dysfunctional-dick wrote:
ice-pussy wrote:You think losing is a positive sporting outcome?
There is nothing wrong with participating and losing.
Sure, but elite athletes at the Olympics don't compete for second place.

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 31st, 2010, 5:51 pm

snowleopard wrote:
dysfunctional-dick wrote:
ice-pussy wrote:You think losing is a positive sporting outcome?
There is nothing wrong with participating and losing.
Sure, but not for elite athletes.
I am 60 years old.

At that age, I am hardly an elite athlete.

I have a full-time professional job, a wife, three children, and a full and busy life in many other ways.

I am an English professor.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 31st, 2010, 5:58 pm

snowleopard wrote:Sure, but elite athletes at the Olympics don't compete for second place.
I don't remember being invited to row on the US National Team in the Olympics.

Must have missed that.

On the other hand, I _do_ remember winning races by 15-30 seconds, again and again, against those my own age and weight.

I also remember three WR age-group rows.

So races don't have much appeal to me anymore.

My goal is to try to get substantially better.

That's much harder than winning races.

Besides me (in 2003), no 2K male WR-holder, 40-70 years old, has ever gotten better, much less substantially better, in the entire history of the sport.

Once you are a WR-holder, getting substantially better is all about smart, informed, careful, focussed, dedicated, ambitious, creative, difficult training.

It doesn't have much at all to do with winning races.

For someone like me, winning races is a cinch.

No challenge at all.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

whp4
6k Poster
Posts: 665
Joined: March 15th, 2006, 10:09 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by whp4 » March 31st, 2010, 6:11 pm

ranger wrote:
When you are working on algebra in middle school, you don't take a college-level calculus exam to see how competent you are in math, although doing some arithmetic might still be relevant.
You do get regularly tested on the algebra, however, to see what sort of progress you are making. You don't get tested on arithmetic (or grammar) over and over to see how you might do on algebra.

Nosmo
10k Poster
Posts: 1595
Joined: November 21st, 2006, 3:39 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Nosmo » March 31st, 2010, 6:17 pm

John Rupp wrote:
Nosmo wrote:the vast majority of time he races very poorly--goes out too fast blows up and does not finish. Some one who does this mostly likely does not know what they are doing.
John Rupp wrote:I disagree with this. Olympic weightlifters often miss lifts in competition, in fact it is more common to miss than to complete all six lifts perfectly.
Nosmo wrote: Not relevant.
Well then your point is not relevant.
Seriously John, weight lifting and rowing are very different sports with very different rules and different objectives. You know that. Missing a lift is not like handling down in an erg race. Consistently missing every lift if a large proportion of competitions would be a closer analogy.

Locked