The Two Types of Training

[NavigationHazard]

It was NOT "flat" for 60 minutes at 172 bpm.

Yes, my heart rate had to rise to 172 bpm, but that only took a few minutes (out of an hour). After that it was indeed flat and only rose because I pulled the pace down from 1:48 to 1:40. If I had remained at 1:48, it would have remained flat. I don't see how a heart rate could be "flatter," do you? You have HR "drift" when your heart rate continues to rise throughout a piece, even after it matches the level of exertion, e.g., after a few minutes. There was no drift. There was just a natural rise until my heart rate matched the level of exertion and then it was flat until I decided to raise the pace. As I said, I could have extended the row to 20K at 1:48 if I wanted to. If I had, my heart rate would have stayed flat. ranger

Constant threshold (or near-threshold) associated HR cannot be maintained over long periods of time while performance remains constant. One or the other has to give. Either HR goes up (drift) to allow performance to be maintained; or else performance falls off if HR is held constant.

See Boulay et al., Monitoring high-intensity endurance exercise with heart rate and thresholds. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1997 Jan;29(1):125-32:

Ventilatory and lactate thresholds have been proposed as tools to establish the highest steady-state intensity sustainable during prolonged physical exercise. The purposes of this study were to clarify whether the intensity at the ventilatory threshold could be sustained during prolonged high-intensity exercise and if the corresponding work rate, pulmonary ventilation, and blood lactate concentration could also be maintained. Fifteen young and healthy male subjects were submitted to a VO2max test on ergocycle and a 90-min high-intensity ergocycle endurance exercise test. During the 90-min exercise test, subjects were able to maintain an intensity corresponding to a heart rate 5 beats.min-1 lower than that predetermined from the ventilatory threshold. Heart rate, FeO2, and FeCO2 were stable during the period from 20 to 80 min, VO2 was constant from 30 to 80 min, while work output, pulmonary ventilation, blood lactate, and VCO2 decreased significantly over the 90-min performance. These results show that physiological parameters near the ventilatory threshold are not interchangeable and that some cannot be used to monitor high-intensity long term exercise. Moreover, they clearly demonstrate that the blood lactate concentration fluctuates substantially during a 90-min endurance performance and cannot predict the highest work intensity that can be sustained during prolonged exercise without fatigue. However, heart rate and VO2 at the ventilatory threshold seem to be more suitable markers for that purpose.

I've highlighted relevant sentences to make it easier for you. It took about 20 minutes for their HR to level off at slightly under the ventilatory-threshold level predetermined by a VO2max test. They were able to keep it level until the 80 minute mark. However they WEREN'T able to maintain performance at the same time.

[ranger]

Constant threshold (or near-threshold) associated HR cannot be maintained over long periods of time while performance remains constant.

Without training for it?

Indeed not.

But it you train for it, sure, it can.

That's what distance rowing is all about.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Constant threshold (or near-threshold) associated HR cannot be maintained over long periods of time while performance remains constant.

Without training for it?

Indeed not.

But it you train for it, sure, it can.

That's what distance rowing is all about.

ranger

thus spake the ranger[Bot]!

Where are the Fem[Bot]s when we need them?

Where's lancs, anyway?

Every day is Groundhog's Day!! "Bing! Again. I'm I right?"



jes remember you heard it here first!
ranger distance rowing trumps science!!

[aharmer]

Okay Rich, I understand your theory about not needing to track and log every training piece. But as somebody said before, the machine monitors your rows regardless how you feel about the subject. By the way, you know that you rowed for an hour at 1:48 except for the final 1000 when you kicked it down to 1:40. That sounds like keeping track of things to me...how much more can you monitor a session? Nobody is asking you to go out and race a 60 minute piece. We're saying, even if you don't look at the monitor for an entire hour while rowing, we'd like to see that piece. Post the screenshot that is there regardless of whether you want to look at it or not. Does the physical act of snapping a photo completely f**k up your training?

See, all you'd need to do is post one screenshot of a training piece and everybody would be off your back. If anybody would love to stick it up all our asses, it would be you. You clearly aren't doing 1:48 for an hour, everybody knows it, why the need to maintain this charade?

[leadville]

Technique is now _very_ good, and great training for my OTW efforts.
I am now squaring up at the catch, rolling up on my toes, sitting up tall and straight, sequencing my levers, accelerating the handle, finishing completely, recovering my hands quickly, sweeping the handle across my flat knees before breaking my legs and going down the slide for the next catch.

Squaring up at the catch on your ergometer?

Byron - good 'catch'. rangerboy actually thinks he can 'square up' on an erg? to quote the lamented rumsfeld, there are things he doesn't know that he doesn't know...

[ranger]

ranger distance rowing trumps science

The subjects in the study were untrained.

So the results are irrelevant to the discussion here.

This is not to say that it is _easy_ to dash along at your anaerobic threshold keeping your HR and performance constant.

No sir.

It's damn difficult.

But so it goes.

That's what training is for.

Life is hard.

Then you die.



ranger

[ranger]

By the way, you know that you rowed for an hour at 1:48 except for the final 1000 when you kicked it down to 1:40. That sounds like keeping track of things to me...how much more can you monitor a session?

Sure I monitored it.

I was racing.

But the important point for training is not what I did in this race but how I trained for it.

I trained for it by doing 60min rows, not noting at all what times I as doing, just working hard.

I did that for a couple of years.

Then I raced the 60min @ 1:48.

ranger

[Byron Drachman]

Technique is now _very_ good, and great training for my OTW efforts.
I am now squaring up at the catch, rolling up on my toes, sitting up tall and straight, sequencing my levers, accelerating the handle, finishing completely, recovering my hands quickly, sweeping the handle across my flat knees before breaking my legs and going down the slide for the next catch.

Squaring up at the catch on your ergometer?

Byron - good 'catch'. rangerboy actually thinks he can 'square up' on an erg? to quote the lamented rumsfeld, there are things he doesn't know that he doesn't know...

Hi Leadville,

Also did you notice that he said squaring at the catch instead of squaring before the catch? You've seen his hilarious flip-catch in his OTW videos. The funny thing is that I can feather on my C2 because I made a special handle.

added later: Here is a link to a photo of my feathering handle. The wooden grips rotate and click when the blades are fully squared or fully feathered. The little yellow blades turn so I can watch the blades. I thought it would help training the fingers to do the feathering properly. I found doing the more gradual roll-up and getting squared before the catch much easier OTW after practicing that on the erg.

http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s59/ ... t_C2_2.jpg

Byron

[leadville]

It seems that (for 5k) I am faster than you... explain (?)

Yes, anything is faster than nothing.

I haven't raced 5K yet this year.

My pb, back when I didn't know how to row, was 17:10.

We'll know what I can do for 5K now by the end of the month.

When I get around to it, I suspect I will row a FM at your 5K pace.

A FM is done at 5K + 9.

ranger

hey dumbass, the month ends tomorrow at midnight.

youy've claimed - repeatedly - you are going to erg all those events at WR pace by the end of March.

The end of the month is tomorrow. You'd best get cracking, rangerboy

[NavigationHazard]

ranger distance rowing trumps science

The subjects in the study were untrained. So the results are irrelevant to the discussion here. This is not to say that it is _easy_ to dash along at your anaerobic threshold keeping your HR and performance constant. No sir. It's damn difficult. But so it goes. That's what training is for. Life is hard. Then you die.
ranger

What discussion? Talking at a cognitively inert Tickle Me Elmo doll is not a discussion.

I'm betting you don't know A. Klusiewicz, Relationship between the anaerobic threshold and the maximal lactate steady state in male and female rowers. It's in Biology of Sport 22:2 (2005) 171-80. It's a study of 14 male and 5 female Polish international rowers. Rowing for 30 minutes at maximum lactate steady-state (defined as the highest lactate level in the blood that does not increase by more than 1 mmol/l-1 in the last 20 minutes of exercising at a constant workload), they saw an average 19 bpm increase in HR between the 2nd and 30th minutes. 12 bpm of that came between the 2nd and 10th minutes. 4 bpm came between the 11th and 20th minutes. The remaining 3 bpm increase came between the 21st and 30th minutes. Klusiewicz even recommends that "for the selection of ... training workouts, increases in HR with the time of the exercises (the so-called cardiac drifts) should be used instead of ... constant HR values."

To summarize the foregoing, 19 Polish international rowers in their athletic prime weren't able to hold HR constant for even 30 minutes when rowing at constant maximal lactate steady-state intensity (slightly lower than an arbitrary 4 mmol-l blood lactate level). If they couldn't do it for half an hour, you didn't do it for 50 minutes plus out of a 60-minute row.

[jliddil]

For some really fascinating data take a look at this:

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/races/200 ... files.aspx

Sure it is cycling but you can view all this data and see what HR etc. If nothing else it is cool and you can play with the graphs to revisualize the data.

[leadville]

Constant threshold (or near-threshold) associated HR cannot be maintained over long periods of time while performance remains constant.

Without training for it?

Indeed not.

But it you train for it, sure, it can.

That's what distance rowing is all about.

ranger

the mountain of proof that rangerboy is feck-and-clueless (kudos to Nav) and more ignorant than a box o' rox has gained new height with this latest demonstration of idiocy. Where, rangerboy, did you find the scientific study that supported your claim that cardiac drift does not occur in trained athletes?

If you did, it contradicts other published studies including:

- Stephen Seiler, Glenn Øvrevik Kjerland's "Quantifying training intensity distribution in elite endurance athletes: is there evidence for an ‘‘optimal’’ distribution?" in Scandinavian Journal of Medicine and Science;

- E. A. Dawson, and R. Shave et al, "Cardiac drift during prolonged exercise with echocardiographic evidence of reduced diastolic function of the heart" in European Journal of Applied Physiology (which noted "During prolonged exercise cardiovascular drift occurred with echocardiographic signs of a reduced diastolic function of the heart, especially in those subjects with a high maximal oxygen uptake. (that means they're highly trained, you dope)"); and

- "How Do Humans Control Physiological Strain during Strenuous Endurance Exercise?" by Jonathan Esteve-Lanao,Alejandro Lucia, Jos J. deKoning, and Carl Foster.

oh, right, rangerboy operates in rangerworld with rangerheart and rangerphysiology which makes him immune to biological and physiological processes which affect the rest of us.

what a moron.

[leadville]

Technique is now _very_ good, and great training for my OTW efforts.
I am now squaring up at the catch, rolling up on my toes, sitting up tall and straight, sequencing my levers, accelerating the handle, finishing completely, recovering my hands quickly, sweeping the handle across my flat knees before breaking my legs and going down the slide for the next catch.

Squaring up at the catch on your ergometer?

Byron - good 'catch'. rangerboy actually thinks he can 'square up' on an erg? to quote the lamented rumsfeld, there are things he doesn't know that he doesn't know...

Hi Leadville,

Also did you notice that he said squaring at the catch instead of squaring before the catch? You've seen his hilarious flip-catch in his OTW videos. The funny thing is that I can feather on my C2 because I made a special handle.

added later: Here is a link to a photo of my feathering handle. The wooden grips rotate and click when the blades are fully squared or fully feathered. The little yellow blades turn so I can watch the blades. I thought it would help training the fingers to do the feathering properly. I found doing the more gradual roll-up and getting squared before the catch much easier OTW after practicing that on the erg.

http://s149.photobucket.com/albums/s59/ ... t_C2_2.jpg

Byron

Byron - nice custom work.

FYI - found an interesting study (it's around here somewhere...) that purported to determine the affect on boat speed of squaring the blades in a headwind. I can't remember the specifics, but the impact was significant - on the order of better than a boat length in a stiff breeze. of course, one should always square the blades BEFORE the catch...unless one is rowing on rangerwater...

[mikvan52]

ranger distance rowing trumps science

The subjects in the study were untrained.

So the results are irrelevant to the discussion here.

Ever try to train mitochondria? It's harder than training the planaria to which you seem to so closely related...

Good answer though! => the right doses of ignorance and evasiveness. My compliments, professor.

You haven't convinced anyone with your answer...

Let's see the screen shot of incontrovertable ranger-evidence....

Well?
This format will do...
(C2 workout summary)
split time......avg pace per split... spm... heart rate
#1
#2
#3
#4
#5

And your PM4 does it all for you!
Choose any steady UT pace you want and row for an hour (= 5 twelve minute splits)
Won't do it.. I know.

I set one up with 6 splits:

1:00:00.0 --- 16,138m --- 1:51.5 --- 25 spm
10' --- 2695 --- 1:51.3 --- 25
20' --- 2703 --- 1:50.9 --- 25
30' --- 2692 --- 1:51.4 --- 24
40' --- 2682 --- 1:51.8 --- 25
50' --- 2674 --- 1:52.1 --- 25
60' --- 2689 --- 1:51.5 --- 26

all you have to do is add your heart rate data...

Take a brave pill before you eat crow... You won't have a steady HR. I guarantee it. After 20' it will creep at a steady pace...

Row 2' pace if you want!

Here's another way you can do it:

70% (143 bpm upper limit)

4 x 12 minutes done in 4'4'4' : 18-20-22 spm : +21,+19,+ 17 seconds over 2k pace

The Basics:

12min - 3073m - 1:57.1 - 20 spm avg - 124 bpm
12min - 3086m - 1:56.6 - 20 - 130
12min - 3090m - 1:56.5 - 20 - 133
12min - 3119m - 1:55.4 - 20 - 136

TOTAL WORK 48' - 12,368 meters at 20 spm avg - 1:56.4


The 4'4'4' breakdowns for each of the four sets

...................SET #1........................SET #2......................SET #3...................SET #4
1st 4': 1:59.6 @ 116 bpm.......1:58.5 @ 125 bpm........1:59.1 @ 125........1:58.5 @ 127

2nd 4': 1:57.1 @ 126 bpm........1:56.8 @ 129 bpm........1:56.7 @ 134........1:55.2 @ 138

3rd 4': 1:54.7 @ 132 bpm........1:54.5 @ 137 bpm........1:53.7 @ 140........1:52.5 @ 143

(I stayed on goal rates)

See how the HR creeps? I'm not untrained...

[aharmer]

Rich, you insist you're rowing at the same rates as when you did your 1:48 for 60 minutes. You imply similar pieces are being done now. Instead of playing this stupid game of linguistics, why not just man up and show one of your training pieces. You conveniently respond only to the portion of my posts which does not force you to show proof of any of your training. Forget all the bullshit wordplay you seem to love so much. You row every day. You don't look at the monitor because that would mean you're racing. You row at your AT for an hour or more every day. Don't look at the monitor until you finish the piece. When you finish the piece, look at it for the first time and snap a photo of the monitor showing your distance, time, HR, etc. We know it's on the monitor even if you don't look at it. If the physical act of looking at the monitor when you finish will destroy your training base, look away as you snap the photo.

It's that simple Rich...there is only one reason in the world not to do this. I think we all know what that reason is.