The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
lancs
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by lancs » March 26th, 2010, 6:17 am

ranger wrote:I think I have improved as much as six seconds per 500m in the full marathon, four seconds per 500m in a 5K, and five seconds per 500m in between.
Although you still don't know for sure as you've not done any kind of trial where you're not rowing with breaks. I suspect you'll be around 6 or 7 seconds away from your 1:48 target for the FM. Anyway, we've been having this 1:48 FM discussion for some time now: 5 years or so?

Anyone who targets a 1:48 FM would ideally manage, for example, a FM @ 1:52, which you can't so I'd forget worrying about the FM for a while until you can pull something like a 1:52-1:54. Which you can't.

I do admire your energy in still spouting this rubbish some 5 years on. And yes, I know. We'll see by the end of April. Like we saw by the end of 'The Fall' in 2005-2009, by BIRC, EIRC & WIRC on any given year you'd like to choose..

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 26th, 2010, 6:19 am

lancs wrote:And yes, I know. We'll see by the end of April..
Yes, we will.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 26th, 2010, 6:22 am

PaulH wrote:
ranger wrote:Competitively, you can't be better than being the best (by a large margin)
Strangely, you can - very specifically you can be better *competitively* by being better in *competition*, which is what MvB did. That's why he's the world champion and you're the champion of, what was it, part of Illinois?

What you are better at is the very opposite; non-competitively. The less competition there is, the better you do, which is why your very best (alleged) rowing is in your basement.
No, I have two WR rows in competition, one at BIRC and one at WIRC (and one by myself, albeit rowing in public).

Mike has never come close to a WR, much less in competition.

I keep waiting for him to get better, but he just keeps getting worse.

His times are already 5-10 seconds slower than the 60s lwt WR, so he has little chances of meeting the standards of the next age group, either.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

mrfit
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by mrfit » March 26th, 2010, 6:41 am

Ranger Ranking Distance Countdown:
36 days

KevJGK
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by KevJGK » March 26th, 2010, 7:02 am

ranger wrote: Mike has never done this....

Mike has never done that....

Mike has never come close to a WR.....

I keep waiting for Mike......

I wonder what Mike is doing today....

I wonder what Mike did last night....

I wonder what Mike is wearing to the party....
I appreciate limerence is involuntary but I was just wondering?????

Do you have a picture of Mike at the side of your bed? :lol:
Kevin
Age: 57 - Weight: 187 lbs - Height: 5'10"
500m 01:33.5 Jun 2010 - 2K 06:59.5 Nov 2009 - 5K 19:08.4 Jan 2011

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chgoss
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by chgoss » March 26th, 2010, 10:30 am

ranger wrote:
KevJGK wrote:Do you ever intend to report your training or will you continue to treat the forum as a joke?
[my recent 6:41] results were not bad, even though I haven't been specifically training to race yet... I am happy with that, for the time being, as I continue to train hard to be better.
Rich, you are definitely making progress acknowledging reality!
6:41 is where you're at (you arent currently prepared, continue to postpone the hoped for 6:28 "predictor" distance trial)
6:16 is where you think you are going to get to (once you are fully trained/prepared)
so, that's a 25 second difference..

simple! end of story.
52 M 6'2" 200 lbs 2k-7:03.9
1 Corinthians 15:3-8

roeiert
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by roeiert » March 26th, 2010, 10:36 am

Nosmo wrote:
roeiert wrote:To come back to the different strokes ergometer vs. on the water.

1. Just for fun, I did some back of the envelope physics calculations of a rowing stroke on the water. For a good starting point, Google "Physics of rowing". Of course my calculations contain some simplifications and approximations, but they do show that at constant stroke length and constant speed, there is one ideal recovery:stroke ratio, around 2.4:1. At 2:1, roughly a second per 500m is lost. At 3:1, idem. Disclaimer: I took some shortcuts, so a valid conclusion would be what every rower knows, that there is an optimum ratio and that it is somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1. I believe 2.41:1 is quite accurate but I would have to do more calculations to prove it.
I don't really believe this. (Having a Ph.D. in experimental physics, I'd love to see you prove me wrong.. :) )
But seriously, doesn't it depend on how you define Ideal? I haven't seen too many people race a 2K at a ratio or 2:1 or greater, so that can't be the optimum ratio for short races. So while that may be ideal in terms of efficiency, it can't be in terms of maximum speed. That ratio may require just too high of a peak force for any human to sustain at 2K pace.
That's a good point. I didn't consider that humans have a max peak force. It's too easy to forget. :-)

Obviously, it is perfectly legitimate to decrease the ratio if it is the only way to actually go faster at max peak force. :-)

Also, I noticed I confused English terms for pacing and rating. Sorry for that.

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Byron Drachman
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Byron Drachman » March 26th, 2010, 11:22 am

Ranger wrote:Not much interested in honing my OTW rowing at the moment.
But you are going to win the HOCR when you turn 60.

whp4
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by whp4 » March 26th, 2010, 11:41 am

Byron Drachman wrote:
Ranger wrote:Not much interested in honing my OTW rowing at the moment.
But you are going to win the HOCR when you turn 60.
Well, of course! The fastest guys on the erg are rowers, so when he makes himself the fastest guy on the erg with that 6:16 as a 60 year old lightweight, it stands to reason that he will thus be the fastest rower as well. Actually racing the HOCR at that point is hardly even worth doing, much like all those trials he's spoken of doing over the past 7 years. If you think you can do it, that's all that truly matters.

kini62
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by kini62 » March 26th, 2010, 1:44 pm

ranger wrote:
I didn't train all of these years to stay the same.

ranger
You've succeeded spectacularly! You're now much slower. Congratulations!!!!!! You've done it. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Gene

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jliddil
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by jliddil » March 26th, 2010, 3:26 pm

JD
Age: 51; H: 6"5'; W: 172 lbs;

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Byron Drachman
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Byron Drachman » March 26th, 2010, 4:25 pm

Ranger wrote: Jan 11, 2007: We'll see how it goes this winter. It appears that I have now made the complete switch from maximal drag (200+ df.) to minimal drag (95 df.), from an "erg" stroke to an OTW stroke.

Feb 7, 2006:I have just been learning a quality OTW stroke. That project is now complete.

June 1, 2007:If my training keeps going as well as it is but I don't row 6:20 this next year, I won't be much interested in competitive erging from now on. I'll just row OTW and use the erg for general conditioning.

August 15, 2007: Being fast is not the most important thing to me. Rowing is intrinsically pleasurable (even beautiful, as all sports, being arts, when done well, are). The better your form, the closer it is to effective OTW form, the more elegant and pleasurable rowing becomes.

Rowing OTW is where it is at, not rowing indoors. If done properly, erging is wonderful training for rowing OTW, but it is not the thing itself. Ultimately, I want do mainly OTW racing and use erging as winter training.

We'll see, but I think you'll find that good OTW technique is faster than some sort of jerry-rigged erg stroke, even for the erg. OTW technique takes more time to learn, but it really does the job. In my case, I think good OTW technique will turn out to be 2-6 seconds per 500m better than my old erg stroke, depending on the length of the distance rowed. OTW technique will be 6 seconds better for the FM, 2 seconds per 500m better for the 500m. Improvement in the other distances will range inbetween, the longer distances improving more, the shorter distances, less.

August 11,2007: Nice outing OTW. I was doing some solid 2:03 @ 26 spm out there today.
Recalibrated, that is right about what I do on the erg these days, 1:40 @ 26 spm (13.5 SPI).

October 5, 2007: This morning. I was hitting 2:02 @ 25 spm OTW. I am approaching 2:00 @ 25 spm.

March 10, 2008: This coming year should be fun! I will probably race OTW for the first time this next year, too. That will be exciting.

March 22, 2008: OTW, I won't be a lightweight. I'll be a heavyweight.
I can't get to 155 lbs. OTW, I'll be one hell of a tough, powerful, resourceful light heavyweight, though.
At 170 lbs., there won't be much weight in my boat, relative to the engine powering it along. Zoooooooooooooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

April 29, 2008: A normal erg session for me now will be 20K of 1:45 @ 22 spm.
In addition to this, weather permitting, I'll be doing a 20K session @ 22 spm OTW.

May 2, 2008: So, if I can learn to row with equal competence and outrow Mike VB by 30 seconds over 2K on the erg even though I weigh only 5 kgs. more, I should outrow him by about a minute over 3 miles OTW. Nice!

May 7, 2008: I can now hold a nice 26 spm OTW. I need to do the same on the erg.
Then my rowing for the spring and summer is set. RWAT
For me, 2:05 @ 26 OTW is equivalent to 1:42 @ 26 spm on the erg.
My OTW stroke and erg stroke are now the same.

June 2, 2008: OTW yesterday, I was holding 2:05 @ 24 spm.
I am delighted with that.
At one point, I was doing 1:58 @ 24 spm.
That is _very_ good rowing for someone approaching 60 years old.
At the US OTW nationals, among 60-year olds, the 1K is won at about 2:00 pace.

June 11, 2008: I now do fine on the water.
2:00 @ 26 spm
No swimming at all.
Lots of work still to do on lots of things.
But I am happy with my progress.
The 60s OTW 1Ks at the Nationals are usually won at about 2:00 pace.
I will race a new elite 1x (not my tub of a Peinert) in the Nationals when I am 60.

June 12, 2008: My stroke is now a dream to use, entirely relaxed. –snip--so my erging and OTW rowing have merged perfectly. My stroke is the same both OTW and off.

June 25, 2008: Yes, my OTW stroke is getting better and better, mainly because I am just getting out there in my 1x more than I used to.
As a result, I might indeed compete OTW earlier than I thought.
Perhaps some head races this fall?
Then some sprints next spring?

January 12, 2009: If I can hold 32 spm for 3 miles OTW, taking full strokes, at 155 lbs., at the HOTC in a couple of years, when I am 60 years old, I'll win, going away

March 31, 2009: I will racing my 1x OTW for the first time., both sprint events and head events, hey, for how long?, perhaps for the next 20 years!

March 5, 2009: I love to row and have been investing in learning to row, both OTW and off, for the last five years. Now comes the pay off!

April 22, 2009: I have been doing dedicated and focused OTW rowing for five years.

April 27, 2009: I can hold a solid 2:00 @ 30 spm.
Massive improvement from last year: lighter grip on the oars, cleaner catches and finishes, better clearance of my blades on recoveries, more horizontal pull, better timing with my legs and back, quicker recoveries, etc.
I now know how to row.
I have made steady progress OTW, since I started to row OTW in the summer of 2003.
My technique work on the erg has helped my OTW a lot.
I am now ready to race OTW.

Oct 20, 2009: I now use the same stroke on the erg and I do in my 1x and I can sustain a pretty nice 2:00 @ 30 spm OTW.

Oct 20, 2009: I put in a couple of million meters OTW this spring, summer, and fall

Jan 31, 2010: Over the last seven years I have been working on technique (both OTW and off).

Feb 24, 2010: Mike doesn't have a hope in hell of beating me OTW in either a 1K or a 5K if he can't rate up.

March 25, 2010: I don't have any background in OTW rowing, either. I am just starting to learn.

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 26th, 2010, 5:53 pm

leadville wrote:Who gives a rat's rear end about rangerboy or his basement-based quest to set the world record for most posts on a rowing blog while pretending to train?
Well, if you can row WR pace for your age and weight, _waaay_ faster than anyone else your age and weight this year, in fact, faster than anyone your age and weight has ever rowed before, when only half-trained, and even so only pretending to train, yikes, you are in a pretty good position, no?

RANKING RESULTS 2010
Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (55–59) | Current 2010 Season

You are number 1 of 100
View your Ranking

1 Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.4 RACE
2 Michael van Beuren 57 Hartland VT USA 6:47.6 IND_V
3 Jonathan Rich 56 Winter Park FL USA 6:52.3 RACE
4 Eric Winterbottom 58 Bodytalk GBR 7:01.9 RACE
5 Gary Passler 55 amesbury MA USA 7:05.0 RACE
6 David Sutkowy 56 manlius NY USA 7:05.4 RACE
6 Rolf Meek 59 Oslo NOR 7:05.4 IND
8 John Busk 56 Slangerup DEN 7:07.6 IND
9 Ernest Cook 55 Brookline MA USA 7:08.3 RACE
10 Daniel Devez 56 Port-Marly Rc FRA 7:08.5 RACE

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 26th, 2010, 6:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 26th, 2010, 5:57 pm

Byron Drachman wrote:
Ranger wrote:Not much interested in honing my OTW rowing at the moment.
But you are going to win the HOCR when you turn 60.
Just a goal, Byron.

Ask me again after ten million more meters OTW (and ten million more meters on the erg), which is what I will put in before HOCR 2011.

I'll know where I am with my OTW rowing much better then.

For instance, I will know my times over 1K and 5K OTW, etc.

I will be doing interval workouts OTW, etc.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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NavigationHazard
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by NavigationHazard » March 26th, 2010, 6:18 pm

There's an easy way to find out your time right now over 1k OTW. Row a measured 1000 meters on the clock. Start timing when your bow ball passes the start line and stop when it crosses the finish line.

Hint #1: This works for 5k, too.

Hint #2: Much the same method can be applied to dry-land rowing simulation on a Concept II ergometer.
67 MH 6' 6"

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