The Two Types of Training

[Byron Drachman]

There is a chart on page 180 of Rowing Faster, edited by Volker Nolte, that demonstrates how the drive and recovery times change as the stroke rate changes. The first time I saw the chart I was surprised to see how little the drive time changes compared to how much the recovery time changes as the rate changes. The chart is based on a heavyweight pair, and the author gives other references to others who have studied this. For example, at stroke rate 20 the ratio is roughly 2.7, and at rate 30 the ratio is about 1.7 for that pair. As the stroke rate increases, the ratio gets closer to 1.

[ranger]

There is no way you can pull a FM at 1:48 pace, your in dream land.

Why don't you get a copy of RowPro and start some online racing with people that can manage a sub 1:50 pace for 40 minutes if your so hot on the Erg ? you will find your a member of a pretty small group of individuals.

Probably about time you added some more verified results to your signature.....

I did 60min @ 1:48, but that was when I didn't know how to row.

i did the third 10K of my marathon pb at 1:48, too, although that wasn't too smart in terms of pacing.

Today I was doing a great 1:48 @ 25 spm with my HR in the low to mid 150s.

Yep, I can row a FM with my HR is the low to mid 150s.

So I guess we'll see.

25 spm is a nice FM rate.

11 SPI is a solid stroke but pretty light for me now, so the combination is _very_ comfortable.

ranger

[ranger]

Probably about time you added some more verified results to your signature.....

Yes.

I'll race all of the events in April.

ranger

[rjw]

My distance rowing will tell me where I am now with respect to 2K.

How so? You are not doing any.

Just give a 10k, 30' or 5k a go. What does it tell you?

Exactly!

6:41

[rjw]

I'll just do the rows and that will generate the 2K predictions.

Just facts and time-tested formulas.

No speculation at all.

You have actually done the best 2k predictor going.

6:41

That's it!

Get over yourself!

[whp4]

I did 60min @ 1:48, but that was when I didn't know how to row.

And now that you know how, you can't

i did the third 10K of my marathon pb at 1:48, too, although that wasn't too smart in terms of pacing.

A common problem for you over distances short and long!

Today I was doing a great 1:48 @ 25 spm with my HR in the low to mid 150s.

No big deal when you only do it for a minute or two at a time, as you do. Feel free to prove otherwise with a screenshot showing a 5K piece at that pace and rate. It should be a piece of cake if you're going to have any hope of doing 8 of them in a row.

Yep, I can row a FM with my HR is the low to mid 150s.

Your late mother probably could have a few months ago, CHF and all, so long as she could tolerate the boredom and the seat. Now, if you care to specify a pace...that one you did a few years ago for us, wasn't that 2:06 or so pace?

So I guess we'll see.

Unlikely. We haven't seen anything since 2003, why should 2010 be any different?

[johnlvs2run]

Riggering, a source of endless debate among water rowers. I am not going to model this but experience tells us that a race can be lost by wrong riggering.

Riggering at the wrong time can be quite devastating.

[leadville]

Hey, guys, it's march here in the northern hemisphere, and late march at that.

Isn't it time to stop this endless blathering about rangerboy's futile attempt to reach unreachable goals? Wouldn't time be better spent on the water? Driving to the water? Driving from the water? Thinking about the next practice on the water, or re-reading Nolte's text, or Cunningham's? Or pondering who will win the men's collegiate race at the Crew Classic this weekend? (I'm rooting hard for my beloved Orange!) Or re-checking the rigging on the 1x? Or, say, taking a nap?

Who gives a rat's rear end about rangerboy or his basement-based quest to set the world record for most posts on a rowing blog while pretending to train?

Go out and row, and let the troll blather to himself.

[KevJGK]

There is no way you can pull a FM at 1:48 pace.......

I did 60min @ 1:48, but that was when I didn't know how to row.

i did the third 10K of my marathon pb at 1:48, too, although that wasn't too smart in terms of pacing.

Today I was doing a great 1:48 @ 25 spm with my HR in the low to mid 150s.

Yep, I can row a FM with my HR is the low to mid 150s.

What a slippery answer.

Do you ever intend to report your training or will you continue to treat the forum as a joke?

Why is honesty so difficult for you?

[hjs]

To come back to the different strokes ergometer vs. on the water.

1. Just for fun, I did some back of the envelope physics calculations of a rowing stroke on the water. For a good starting point, Google "Physics of rowing". Of course my calculations contain some simplifications and approximations, but they do show that at constant stroke length and constant speed, there is one ideal recovery:stroke ratio, around 2.4:1. At 2:1, roughly a second per 500m is lost. At 3:1, idem. Disclaimer: I took some shortcuts, so a valid conclusion would be what every rower knows, that there is an optimum ratio and that it is somewhere between 2:1 and 3:1. I believe 2.41:1 is quite accurate but I would have to do more calculations to prove it.

I don't really believe this. (Having a Ph.D. in experimental physics, I'd love to see you prove me wrong.. )
But seriously, doesn't it depend on how you define Ideal? I haven't seen too many people race a 2K at a ratio or 2:1 or greater, so that can't be the optimum ratio for short races. So while that may be ideal in terms of efficiency, it can't be in terms of maximum speed. That ratio may require just too high of a peak force for any human to sustain at 2K pace.

I do believe this is right, his findings are documented over here in Holland, he did do real research. He has a Ph D.

[Citroen]

Do you ever intend to report your training or will you continue to treat the forum as a joke?

Why is honesty so difficult for you?

Er, he's a forum troll, that's what forum trolls do.

You'll get more satisfaction by not feeding the troll. Ignore him, let him blather away and he may get bored if nobody replies. If you add any forum users to your "foes" list you won't even see their posts. http://www.c2forum.com/ucp.php?i=zebra&mode=foes

[ranger]

at rate 30 the ratio is about 1.7 for that pair

Ah.

Nice ratio.



http://images.google.com/images?q=Golde ... CA8QsAQwAA

ranger

[ranger]

Do you ever intend to report your training or will you continue to treat the forum as a joke?

No, I don't consider the forum a joke.

But I _do_ consider those who race their training a joke.

If this is a _racing_ forum, even though its purpose is to explore how to get better at rowing, then, sure, it follows from this that it is a joke.

But I continue to hope that this isn't the case--for at least some (with any sense and/or experience).

So in my posts, I continue to report how I am trying to get better at rowing.

I have indeed reported my _racing_.

In fact, no need for me to report.

I went to public races and performed--repeatedly.

The results were not bad, even though I haven't been specifically training to race yet--six and a half seconds over 2K better than any other 55s lwt, even though I am 59, right around world record 2K pace for my age and weight.

Competitively, you can't be better than the best (by a large margin), so I am happy with that, for the time being, as I continue to train hard to be better.

RANKING RESULTS 2010
Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (55–59) | Current 2010 Season

You are number 1 of 100
View your Ranking

1 Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.4 RACE
2 Michael van Beuren 57 Hartland VT USA 6:47.6 IND_V
3 Jonathan Rich 56 Winter Park FL USA 6:52.3 RACE
4 Eric Winterbottom 58 Bodytalk GBR 7:01.9 RACE
5 Gary Passler 55 amesbury MA USA 7:05.0 RACE
6 David Sutkowy 56 manlius NY USA 7:05.4 RACE
6 Rolf Meek 59 Oslo NOR 7:05.4 IND
8 John Busk 56 Slangerup DEN 7:07.6 IND
9 Ernest Cook 55 Brookline MA USA 7:08.3 RACE
10 Daniel Devez 56 Port-Marly Rc FRA 7:08.5 RACE

ranger

[PaulH]

Competitively, you can't be better than being the best (by a large margin)

Strangely, you can - very specifically you can be better *competitively* by being better in *competition*, which is what MvB did. That's why he's the world champion and you're the champion of, what was it, part of Illinois?

What you are better at is the very opposite; non-competitively. The less competition there is, the better you do, which is why your very best (alleged) rowing is in your basement.

[snowleopard]

Let's take a look at the ranger fine dining menu for season 2009-2010:

Hors d'Ouvre
Age Group World Record with anaerobic threshold garnish

Entrée
Personal Best, lightly frothed

Dessert
6:16 drizzled with Eskild sauce (specialité de la maison)

Cheese
A selection of distance PBs with water biscuits

Wines
Our sommelier's choice of bin-ends from the 2003 vintage. Going over but still drinking well.

And all we got was a lousy hamburger and a Coke