The Two Types of Training

[snowleopard]

Why do you think you have any shot whatsoever at catching up with Eskild's performances

I have just been looking for a dozen seconds

Yeah someone hid them good, outa reach o' short, old middleweights


And btw, it's 25 seconds you're looking for. You've been looking in the wrong place

[chgoss]

Why do you think you have any shot whatsoever at catching up with Eskild's performances

I have just been looking for a dozen seconds

Rich: 6:41 - 6:16 = 25 seconds...

[ranger]

Why do you think you have any shot whatsoever at catching up with Eskild's performances

I have just been looking for a dozen seconds

Yeah someone hid them good, outa reach o' short, old middleweights


And btw, it's 25 seconds you're looking for. You've been looking in the wrong place

From a UT1 2K?

Sure.

AT will be 1:38.

TR, 1:34.

In training for 2K, you don't "look for" a certain 2K, if you want to know where you are.

Look at your distance rowing.

Distance rowing is predictive.

Then you sharpen and hit the predicted targets.

ranger

[johnlvs2run]

You are a 60s lwt who rows like the Danes--meticulously.

But it doesn't seem to help you much

I've managed to have 10 events in the rankings every year.

How many have you managed to have?

[johnlvs2run]

Fully trained, I can pull 6:38 with one arm.

Rich, could you please post a video of this.

Thanks

[mikvan52]

Fully trained, I can pull 6:38 with one arm.

Rich, could you please post a video of this.

Thanks

John:
We remember that "fully trained" means after "hard sharpening"... which never happens for some reason

I'd like a screen shot of his heart rate while doing any IND_V piece over 2k... (with at least 5 splits)
Santa's not come through for me yet on this one!

Why do I feel the "if I's" are about to fall like rain on a spring morning...

"Unprecedented" !

Look, If Perrti Karppinen (a hwt) can erg a 6:12 2k (or similar time) at 50.. there is no way a lightweight 59 year old can erg a 6:16.... ]GIve it up, Rich. The little game with the three nut-shells is over....
(Rich conveniently forgets Dick Cashin's 55 yr old world record too... in his quest for the Holy Grail 6:16
RWB 24/7 is no match for Cashin's 3-day a week training on the erg. Do you have him beat in watts per kilo?...

How about (women's open lwt) Grobler's WR on the erg ... on an erg load of a fraction of 1 day per week average?
What's are her watts/kilo numbers?

Oh. pardon me. It's not fair to compare young women w/ 55-59 year old, 10 million meter men.... (sorry)

[ranger]

Why do you think you have any shot whatsoever at catching up with Eskild's performances

I have just been looking for a dozen seconds

Rich: 6:41 - 6:16 = 25 seconds...

No, fully trained for a 2K, I did 6:28.

I started my training from there.

The 6:41 is just a 2K done in the middle of my training, with no appropriate preparation.

I just did the races this year (and last, and...) because, hey, they were there and it's fun to race.

You don't do your best 2K by any means until you are fully prepared for it, though, and there are several stages of preparation I still have to do.

To do a proper 2K, you have to do hard distance rowing for quite a while until you can comfortably ride at your anaerobic threshold for an hour.

Then you have to do AT workouts--4 x 2K. 4K-3K-2K-1K, 5K trials, etc., forcing your heartrate up over your anaerobic theshold for extended periods.

The you have to do AN workouts, well above race pace and rate, forcing your HR to max and holding it there for different periods of time--and then doing it again, and again.

Then you are ready to row a 2K.

I am still doing distance rowing, preparing for distance trials.

This training is coming along _very_ nicely, though.

I am now getting my HR up into the middle 160s for most of my session.

In a distance trial (of whatever sort), I will lift that up to 170 bpm--and in the kick to the end, well beyond.

At this stage of training in 2003, I opened each session with a 5K @ 1:45 to warm up.

Then I did 4K at 1:42.

Then I went back to 1:45 and tried to see how far I could get.

I would usually get to around 9K.

I also did a lot of hard 60min and HM rows, pushing the pace.

ranger

[ranger]

'd like a screen shot of his heart rate while doing any IND_V piece over 2k... (with at least 5 splits)

Sure, when I do trials, I will wear a HR monitor and provide screen shots with splits and heart rates.

Why not?

I did some screen shots of 5K warm ups last year, where I pulled the pace down to 1:44 for long stretches at the end and so had my HR up to my anaerobic threshold (172 bpm).

Top-end UT1 for me now is 1:43, I think.

ranger

[chgoss]

Why do you think you have any shot whatsoever at catching up with Eskild's performances

I have just been looking for a dozen seconds

Rich: 6:41 - 6:16 = 25 seconds...

...
The 6:41 is just a 2K done in the middle of my training, with no appropriate preparation.
...

exactly,
6:41 is where you are at (you arent currently prepared)
6:16 is where you think you are going to get to (once you are fully prepared)
so, that's a 25 second difference.. simple! end of story.

[ranger]

f Perrti Karppinen (a hwt) can erg a 6:12 2k (or similar time) at 50.. there is no way a lightweight 59 year old can erg a 6:16

Depends on what has happened to your cardiovascular and skeletal-muscular system with age.

Doesn't depend much on what you could do when you were 20.

30 (or 40!) years is a long time.

_Rowing Faster_ claims that the norm is to lose half of your youthful full body strength by 60.

The normal forumula for decline of maxHr is a beat a year: 220 bpm - age.

Etc.

The magnitude of these norms of physical decline are just due to lifestyle, though.

If you don't use it, you lose it.

When you are 60, if you do a lot of work at a HR of 170 bpm, with some work pushing your HR to 190 bpm, it is a little hard to have a maxHR of 160 bpm.



If you use it, you don't lose it.

ranger

[snowleopard]

No, fully trained for a 2K, I did 6:28.

I started my training from there.

Wrong, very wrong. Can you row 6:28 today, tomorrow, next week? No you can't. You start with what you've got, not what you had six years ago.

Your best over the last TWO YEARS, however you want to dress it up -- UT AT IBM UN WTF -- is 6:41.

So that's the starting point. You have already excused your under-performance by saying you are not fully trained. So, by your own admission you are not in shape to row 6:28.

So, it shouldn't be hard to figure out that first you have to get back to 6:28. That's 13 seconds. Then you have to get down to 6:16. That's another 12 seconds. You are looking for 25 seconds.

[ranger]

No, fully trained for a 2K, I did 6:28.

I started my training from there.

Wrong, very wrong. Can you row 6:28 today, tomorrow, next week? No you can't. You start with what you've got, not what you had six years ago.

Your best over the last TWO YEARS, however you want to dress it up -- UT AT IBM UN WTF -- is 6:41.

So that's the starting point. You have already excused your under-performance by saying you are not fully trained. So, by your own admission you are not in shape to row 6:28.

So, it shouldn't be hard to figure out that first you have to get back to 6:28. That's 13 seconds. Then you have to get down to 6:16. That's another 12 seconds. You are looking for 25 seconds.

re at (you arent currently prepared)
6:16 is where you think you are going to get to (once you are fully prepared)
so, that's a 25 second difference.. simple! end of story.

Nope.

My distance rowing will tell me where I am now with respect to 2K.

FM is done at 2K + 14.
HM is done at 2K + 11.
60min is done at 2K + 10.
10K is done at 2K + 8.
30min is done at 2K + 7.
6K is done at 2K + 6.
5K is done at 2K + 5.

So, as I get in some distance trials, we will know exactly where I am with respect to a 2K.

As I said, when you are training for a 2K, 2K doesn't tell you where you are (if you still have a lot of training to do).

If you are fully prepared for it, your distance rowing tells you where you are.

_Exactly_ where you are.

Then you do work at AT, TR, and AN and hit that target.

Sharpening is entirely predictable.

It is your distance rowing that tells you how effective and efficient your training has made you, and it is that effectiveness and efficiency that distinguishes a fast rower from a slow rower, not their sharpening.

Everyone sharpens in the same way for pretty much the same benefit.

If I can pull a FM at 1:48, it predicts a 6:16 2K.

If you are fully prepared for it, a FM is done at 2K + 14.

ranger

[mikvan52]

"BING AGAIN!"

the "if I's/is done ats" are blooming like daffodils !

Rich: Have you seen the "Ultimate Erg Calculator" just what _u_ need for the torrent of predictions without an execution...

http://www.machars.net/ultimate.php


Still, the calculator doesn't do this:

Grobler...........2k in 6:54.7 = 314 watts avg.... weighing 61.36 kg.... yields 5.12 watts/kg (no erg training)
Cashin............2k in 6:18.6 = 413 watts avg.... weighing 86.36 kg.... yields 4.78 watts/kg (some erg training)
nutty professor..2k in 6:41.4 = 346 watts avg.... weighing 75.00 kg.... yields 4.61 watts/kg (10 million m/year)

I wonder if there's a Third type of training out there somewhere? Could come in useful...

[aharmer]

At this stage of training in 2003, I opened each session with a 5K @ 1:45 to warm up.

Then I did 4K at 1:42.

Then I went back to 1:45 and tried to see how far I could get.

I would usually get to around 9K.

Rich, I don't disagree with your opinion on predictability or sharpening. The problem is you aren't able to show a single distance piece showing that you're in 6:40 condition let alone 6:30, 6:20 or 6:16. Do you actually row every day? Do you ever row for more than about 50 strokes at a time?

See your quote above. You have stated on the record hundreds of times that you're much better than in 2003. The workout described above, AT THIS SAME STAGE IN YOUR TRAINING, should be a mindless breeze if you're much better. Please post a 9k piece with 3 splits. First 5k at 1:45, 4k at 1:42, 1k in whatever you can do. HR's would be excellent as well.

If you're not doing this type of workout at this time, please explain exactly what kind of workouts you are doing at this time. It doesn't matter what you post a screenshot of. If it's a really easy 60 minute piece, post it with your HR data to show how low and relaxed it was. ANYTHING for God's sake. Or on the other hand, just tell us that you never intend to post anything so we can move on.

[ranger]

"BING AGAIN!"

the "if I's/is done ats" are blooming like daffodils !

Rich: Have you seen the "Ultimate Erg Calculator" just what _u_ need for the torrent of predictions

Distance rows are predictors.

I am not predicting anything.

I have some hunches, but who knows?

I'll just do the rows and that will generate the 2K predictions.

Just facts and time-tested formulas.

No speculation at all.



ranger