The Two Types of Training

[mikvan52]

Here's my FM stroke.

From a general training point of view (as opposed to ranger-bashing):

Do each of us ever question the advisability of trying to develop multiple strokes?

A FM erg stroke
An sprint erg stroke
A 2k erg stroke
A 1k sculling stroke

IOW a host of strokes...(?)

Leaving particulars like the ratio of drive to recovery aside for a moment: IMHO each of us develops and ingrains a certain style into his/her rowing. I we concentrate hard we can temporarily change the style we've established over our rowing careers for a short time but then we slip back into what we practiced/learned in general.

I've seen a "ranger"-style emerge in the many ranger youtubes. Play them all and see if you agree. There are major elements that do not change from year to year.
It is particularly well-suited for his outstanding 2k successes.
However, IMHO: He will run into problems OTW because he hasn't paid atention to what this successful erg-style will do for a boat.

MOST OFTEN: 100 million meters of doing things a right way (for the erg) produces something that may be very hard to change for a right way for the water UNLESS care is taken to produce a one-stroke-fits-all type of form. There is more latitude in "right ways" for the erg than there is in "right ways" for the water.

Also:
I used to make the mistake of thinking that higher power readings on a machine automatically translate to higher hull speed over the water. It simply doesn't work that way. By itself, fitness ≠ boat speed
Tweaking form to produce erg speed often has negative ramifications for the water.

Time trial all you want on the erg. It's very valuable, but if you want to do well OTW, you have to time trial OTW.
Practice hours follow suit.
Rich spends 10 times the # of hours on the erg than he does OTW..
This ratio of training shouldn't necessarily be judged as wrong but if one has little indication of how fast the boat can go in a continuous piece OTW.... how can that person know if he has built a strong foundation for future racing on the water?
I don't want to be wishy-washy about this either... I prefer at least a 3 to 1 ratio of water meters to erg meters... It makes my training for racing both disciplines come together easier and avoids reinforcement of pitfalls.

Fundamental changes in form can be implemented late in someone's career. It's hard. It takes a long time. It takes humility and a willingness to let go of something that served other purposes and probably includes a large emotional investment.

[ranger]

A FM at 1:48 predicts a 6:16 2K.

ranger

[ranger]

Rich spends 10 times the # of hours on the erg than he does OTW..

You get your tenses wrong, Mike.

Yes, to this point, I have spent ten times as much time on the erg as I have spent OTW.

But not from now on, either this year, or in years to come.

This year, as soon as I can, I will row all of my meters on the water, for the next seven months.

That's rowing _infinitely_ more OTW than on the erg.

Like many other OTW rowers, in years to come, I will only row on the erg when I can't row OTW, e.g., in the winter, at night, or in threatening weather.

When I retire, which might be pretty soon, my wife and I will live out the winters in a warm climate.

Then, I will row OTW year round.

ranger

[leadville]

glad to see that nothing's changed.

rangerboy still rows like crap. can't get to full compression, takes the catch with his arms bent, lays back wayyyyy too far, and rushes the slide.

for a guy who sculls millions of meters OTW every year, and has been for a half-dozen years, he's going to have a heckuva time reprogramming that muscle memory to fix his myriad technical flaws. but since he has the best coach in the world - himself - there's no doubt he'll be able to do this.

I cannot, absolutely cannot wait to see rangerboy at an actual OTW race.

[snowleopard]

A FM at 1:48 predicts a 6:16 2K.

Not if you're Rod Freed

[leadville]

A FM at 1:48 predicts a 6:16 2K.

ranger

a perusal of your sculling video predicts a DFL finish in any race OTW.

[ranger]

glad to see that nothing's changed.

rangerboy still rows like crap. can't get to full compression, takes the catch with his arms bent, lays back wayyyyy too far, and rushes the slide.

for a guy who sculls millions of meters OTW every year, and has been for a half-dozen years, he's going to have a heckuva time reprogramming that muscle memory to fix his myriad technical flaws. but since he has the best coach in the world - himself - there's no doubt he'll be able to do this.

I cannot, absolutely cannot wait to see rangerboy at an actual OTW race.

Not much interested in honing my OTW rowing at the moment.

If I can pull a FM @ 1:48, I equal the Open lwt WR.

That might be fun to do.

A FM at 1:48 also predicts a 6:16 2K.

So, if I get the FM done, it might indeed be interesting to complete my training and see what happens when I am fully trained to do my best over 2K.

ranger

[leadville]

glad to see that nothing's changed.

rangerboy still rows like crap. can't get to full compression, takes the catch with his arms bent, lays back wayyyyy too far, and rushes the slide.

for a guy who sculls millions of meters OTW every year, and has been for a half-dozen years, he's going to have a heckuva time reprogramming that muscle memory to fix his myriad technical flaws. but since he has the best coach in the world - himself - there's no doubt he'll be able to do this.

I cannot, absolutely cannot wait to see rangerboy at an actual OTW race.

Not much interested in honing my OTW rowing at the moment.

If I can pull a FM @ 1:48, I equal the Open lwt WR.
That might be fun to do.

A FM at 1:48 also predicts a 6:16 2K.

So, if I get the FM done, it might indeed be interesting to complete my training and see what happens when I am fully trained to do my best over 2K.

ranger

that's two 'ifs', two 'mights' and one 'predicts'; our hero remains in his fantasy world.

out here in the real world, tough conditions on the Schuylkill early this morning, breezy and lots of boat traffic, but nothing to stop a OTW sculler from getting in a solid workout in a 2x with lots of technical drills. good to be back OTW.

[whp4]

I think ranger has it all figured out. Why bother rowing a full distance when you can just row a few strokes, match them up with a distance in your head, and calculate your time? Pure genius!

I'll do this today at the gym. I'm supposed to be resting, but it should only take me half an hour or so to determine my new PB's for the 500m, 2K, 5K, 6K, 30', 60', HM and FM.

When you are training, it is no virtue to row slowly and badly over some long distance just to find out how slow and bad you are.

Exactly. Much better to row slowly and badly over some short distance so you can post the video and a few dozen inane theories of the day about how great you'll be as soon as you're fully trained with your "mid-morning 6k in the basement with the erg facing east" stroke.

The purpose of training is to try to get faster and better.

That's why most people do it, but one would be hard-pressed to figure this out from observing your training methods!

You get faster and better by training yourself to row well, not by rowing badly, over and over, over and over, to see what time you get.

Right. Instead of doing that, you row badly, over and over, over and over (100 million meters worth, thoroughly ingraining all of those bad habits), and don't ever look at the monitor, because that would nullify all of the imagined improvements

[Nosmo]

OK class, time for another quiz:
Rewrite the above quote so that it makes physical sense.

For the mentally slower reader: What is the relationship between pace and speed? (hint: it is a mathematical relationship and has nothing to do with hammers or world records.)

One for the more advanced: what is the relationship between electrical resistance and speed? (Bob S. or Byron might find this one more interesting)

How many watts/kg do you pull over 2K on the erg? What do you do for 2K OTW?

ranger

Not an answer ranger. Seriously think about the first two questions. It is important to understand what actually happens. The second should be pretty obvious. For the first one you can start with the C2 weight adjustment formula--it is not watts per Kg.

As for me. Who cares? My best racing days are long gone, I've got other priorities now. I'm also much more interested in rowing OTW then on a erg. I haven't done a timed 2k peice on the erg in about 2 years. I haven't raced 2K OTW in over 25 years and never in a single. I've never done an erg race.
I did once do under 3:40 1K OTW in a 1x. Last time I did 2K OTE my watts per Kg was a bit above 4.4. However based on my 4x2K and 4x1K times I have more recently been as high as 4.7. But you know what---watts per kg is the wrong quantity for OTE or OTW!! ANSWER QUESTION #1 and you will know why.

Also of relevance--The one time I raced Mike, I overstroked him by 4 or 5 spm. He beat me by about 2.5 seconds per 500m.

Not the answer you expected ranger? Just ignore things you don't like and continue on with your nonsense
Getting into a pissing contest is not a good idea when you don't know what you are talking about.

Once again you get a a big fat zero on the quiz. Time for the answers:

1) To first approximation the relevant parameter is power divided by weight to the two thirds. Note cyclists who are hill climbing specialist have the highest power to weight ratio. Do they look anything like rowers?

2) Pace is the reciprocal (i.e. the inverse of speed). For someone who spews numbers all the time you seem to have zero mathematical understanding.

3) I only thought one or two people might be interested in this one. People are used to SI unites with obscure the fundamental physics. But if you do things in cgs (centimeters-grams-seconds) it is clearer. Note that resistance times capacitance is a time. Capacitances is strictly a geometric construct--the area of the plates divided by the separation (times a unit-less dielectric constant). So in cgs capacitance is measured in centimeters. Since resistance times capacitance is a time, then resistance must be seconds/cm. Electrical resistance is the inverse of speed. So one could express their erg pace in ohms.

[ranger]

Tweaking form to produce erg speed often has negative ramifications for the water.

Well, if, starting from four seconds below the existing WR for 2K, the "tweaking" of my form on the erg which I have done over the last few years produces a six seconds per 500m improvement in my distance racing and a three second improvement in my 2K racing, even though I am now eight years older, I don't really care what effect it has on my OTW rowing.

I find it fun, in and of itself.

If these things indeed come about, as a result of my training, my erg times will have improved in magnitudes that no erg times have ever improved for an elite aging rower, and in the end, will stand at levels unforeseen and unimagined by anyone, a dozen seconds faster than historical standards in distance racing and six seconds per 500m faster than historical standards in 2K racing.

At 60, I will erg like an elite 30s lightweight and demonstrate that the clock can indeed be turned back, if you are will to work at it hard enough and long enough, and with the proper focus of concern.

That will be a nice legacy to leave from my decade or so of erging before I throw in the towel and switch my focus to OTW rowing.

ranger

[ranger]

Not the answer you expected ranger?

I don't know.

I don't think you have anything to offer.

So who cares?

You think I'm not listening to you?

Well, you're right.

Why should I?

Waste of time.

ranger

[whp4]

That will be a nice legacy to leave from my decade or so of erging before I throw in the towel

Ah, now it all makes sense -- you've been training to throw in the towel with all of those DNF results!

[ranger]

That will be a nice legacy to leave from my decade or so of erging before I throw in the towel

Ah, now it all makes sense -- you've been training to throw in the towel

Yep.

After I reach my goals on the erg, I will switch my focus to OTW rowing.

ranger

[ranger]

Much better to row slowly and badly over some short distance so you can post the video and a few dozen inane theories of the day about how great you'll be as soon as you're fully trained

No, not too slow and bad so far this year, right around WR pace for a 59-year old lightweight.

You can't be better than the best.

No one is even in sight of my 2Ks this year, even though I did them on the basis of a little UT1 work, without even distance trials or sharpening.

So I am now just out on my own trying to get even better yet.

There are no other boats on the river.

RANKING RESULTS 2010

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Custom Age Range (55–59) | Current 2010 Season

1 Rich Cureton 59 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.4 RACE
2 Michael van Beuren 57 Hartland VT USA 6:47.6 IND_V
3 Jonathan Rich 56 Winter Park FL USA 6:52.3 RACE
4 Eric Winterbottom 58 Bodytalk GBR 7:01.9 RACE
5 Gary Passler 55 amesbury MA USA 7:05.0 RACE
6 David Sutkowy 56 manlius NY USA 7:05.4 RACE
6 Rolf Meek 59 Oslo NOR 7:05.4 IND
8 John Busk 56 Slangerup DEN 7:07.6 IND
9 Ernest Cook 55 Brookline MA USA 7:08.3 RACE
10 Daniel Devez 56 Port-Marly Rc FRA 7:08.5 RACE

ranger