The Two Types of Training

[snowleopard]

I did the same with a number of British ergers on several occasions over a number of years--Roy Brook, Matt Newman, Pete Marston, Phil Morris, etc.

Yes, they are all ergers. The offer from Mike relates to rowing

[ranger]

Back to the issue of low rate vs. high rate distance rowing, I think this might be the thing to notice:

It is not at all unusual for ergers to do most of their distance rowing at high rates with a light stroke.

It is also not at all unusual for ergers to do most of their distance rowing at low rates with a heavy stroke.

What is unsual, outside of the most elite rowers, is to find someone who does both in a balanced way.

Caviston likes rowing at low rates with a heavy stroke.

Marston likes rowing at high rates with a light stroke.

Neither likes doing the other.

Freed was like Pete. He didn't like low rate rowing with a heavy stroke.

Back in 2003, I was like Freed and Pete, too.

I didn't do any low rate rowing at all.

For obvious reasons, most quality lightweights seem to prefer high rate rowing with a light stroke.

Most quality heavyweights prefer low rate rowing with a heavy stroke.

What is unusual, though, is to get a lightweight who does a lot of quality meters at low rates with a heavy stroke or a heavyweight rower who does a lot of quality meters at high rates with a light stroke (while they also do what comes more naturally, the opposite, too).

BTW, none of this applies to the rank-and-file erger, I think.

It is no problem to row badly/slowly in both of these ways.

They only become distnct and demanding to master in combination when they are pushed to the limit.

From 2003-2009, I did a lot of low rate rowing (16-22 spm) with a heavy stroke (13-16 SPI).

Since then, I have been doing a lot of high rate rowing (27-32 spm) with a light stroke (9-12 SPI).

ranger

P.S. Roy Brook does very little training at low rates. PaulS has his rowers do 10 MPS for their foundational rowing. 10 MPS rowing is at a relatively high rate.

[ranger]

I did the same with a number of British ergers on several occasions over a number of years--Roy Brook, Matt Newman, Pete Marston, Phil Morris, etc.

Yes, they are all ergers. The offer from Mike relates to rowing

I haven't claimed anything about my OTW rowing other than I am just learning.

Mike is an OTW rowing coach.

It would be great to get some advice from him about what I am doing wrong.

Working out with him could only be to my benefit.

ranger

[ranger]

[removed]

[johnlvs2run]

In this video of Karppinen

Karppinen was 6'7" and 221 pounds.

The 5:51 was questioned a few years ago on the forum.

I don't recall the details, but at the least he was certainly not a lightweight.

[ranger]

In this video of Karppinen

Karppinen was 6'7" and 221 pounds.

The 5:51 was questioned a few years ago on the forum.

I don't recall the details, but at the least he was certainly not a lightweight.

Yes, 100 kgs.

So, at his peak, he probably pulled 5.7 watts/kg on the erg.

ranger

[snowleopard]

So, at his peak, he probably pulled 5.7 watts/kg on the erg.

So what? He was still faster than any lwt

How many watts/kg does Samuel Wanjiru knock out during a marathon? How many watts/kg does Usain Bolt knock out during a 100m dash?

Come on, come on. Where's the evidence[sic]?

Let's not be absolutist. Lets try to make everything relative so we feel more comfortable about our own weaknesses and genetic misfortunes. We're all [per]athletes here. Jump in everyone and share the soapy tub of mediocrity

(Oh, and btw JR, that was irony.)

[PaulH]

Asserted or not ... evidence is evidence.

Indeed, so why not provide some?

Did you wait for "evidence" or scientific studies to stop smoking?

I've never smoked, so hardly a good example. Have you stopped eating any food that is packaged in any way at any point in its distribution or sale?* Some people think packaging transfers potentially harmful chemicals to the food it contains, and if you're not going to wait for evidence you should take action now.

None of this changes the fact: most of the rowers I've seen don't row in the way you describe most rowers doing. My experience may be unusual, of course, but in the absence of any evidence from you I can reasonably assume you're wrong. I'd be very happy if you could demonstrate that I'm wrong, however (hardly the attitude of someone whose 'mind is closed' now, is it?)

*Clue: No you haven't, it's essentially impossible to do so in the US without staying at home all the time.

[johnlvs2run]

most of the rowers I've seen don't row in the way you describe most rowers doing.

I would bet that probably most of the rowers you have seen row exactly that way.

I'd be very happy if you could demonstrate that I'm wrong

Well then you must be absolutely delighted.

[Nosmo]

what is important for OTW rowing is the watts/kg you can pull over 2K on the erg, not your erg score/watts unadjusted for weight.

OK class time for another quiz:
Rewrite the above quote so that it makes physical sense.

For the mentally slower reader: What is the relationship between pace and speed? (hint: it is a mathematical relationship and has nothing to do with hammers or world records.)

One for the more advanced: what is the relationship between electrical resistance and speed? (Bob S. or Byron might find this one more interesting)

[rjw]

.......

Faster than 16:47?

Well who knows. What we do know is that he rowed a 16:47 and no one else has been close.

That should be a clue right there - no one else has been close - hmmm!

[eliotsmith]

2K is the only official race in the sport.

If we participate fully in the sport, we are all 2K specialists.

ranger

RangerLogic is almost as miraculous as RangerMath.

Please define 'sport'.

[whp4]

Well who knows. What we do know is that he rowed a 16:47

We know no such thing. We know only that there's an entry in the database, probably made by someone with access to his account. There is no independent verification that a 5k was rowed in 16:47 by a 50s lightweight named Rod Freed, or even, for that matter, by anyone at all. I'm not even sure you needed to supply a password to rank a good time in those days.

[Citroen]

2K is the only official race in the sport.

If we participate fully in the sport, we are all 2K specialists.

ranger

RangerLogic is almost as miraculous as RangerMath.

I wonder if Rangerlogic would be better named as Rangerillogic.

Clearly his binary system has values other than ones and zeros and is probably the first practical implementation of mainstream quantum cryptography (it's a shame we've not been given the public key to his emissions). There's clearly a pseudo random number generator somewhere in Rangerland, I wonder if it's producing random photon polarisation.

I'd also postulate that Freed had some sort of PRNG to generate most of his unbelievable times.

[mikvan52]

I notice that Rich has no comment on this part of my post on RATE while rowing OTW:

Put a stroke watch on this youtube: PK starts at 40 spm and then lengthens to 35. He sprints at the end at 38 to win in 6:48.08

Rich has stated that high rate is an indication of good rowing

IMHO: Too much focus on a raw number like rate will get you nowhere.

Case in point:
After I wrote the long PK post I went out for my evening workout on the water in my single.
The core of the workout was a 2 x 1k/2' rest

The two 1ks were both 3:56's
(IOW: decent times for any 55-59 sculler) Times like these win races against all comers in the 50-59 groups.
Did my rate matter a whole hell of a lot?

One piece was at 26-28 into a head wind
The other was at a 24 for the body of the piece with a 28 for the final 10 strokes.

so you see just looking at rate means very little in this example.

I have spent the last three years of serious training figuring this out. I've had lots of outside help.
Ideas about SPI and high rate were not part of this help.

My body responds well to moderation (as a non-super human ) I erg 800k a year and scull just under 2 million per year. That is plenty.

Rich thinks I'm weak. More power to him! I'll take the victories over his "if I's" and "after I learn to rate it up".
This "weakness" claim is amusing banter and should not be taken seriously by anyone. He cannot mean it.
It used to bother me but now it just makes me smile

My planning now revolves around winning the HOCR in a field of nearly 70 men. Nothing will get in the way of my focus.
In the meantime, anyone who'd like help with their sculling is welcome to share ideas with me about that. The erg helps with this goal when the water is unavailable.

If Rich (or anyone else) wishes to come to VT and hone up on his/her sculling skills, they're most welcome. This training forum is not he place to discuss that aspect of "Training". PM me if you're interested.
That includes you too, Rich. We don't need to set this up in a public way.

A few months ago I said I would scull with ranger at Masters Nationals in the 2x E hwt division (that's 55-59 men who do not have to weigh in). If ranger signs us up, pays the fee in advance, and shows: we'll row. Afterwards I'll reimburse him for my half of the entry fee. It should be interesting to the erging world to see how we fare in this 1k race. I promise to do everything I can to win this event with him. I already have a hotel reservation in Camden. (No, RIch, we won't room together! )

I hope too to see Rich try the Black Fly Regatta the last weekend in June (5800m +/-).