The Two Types of Training

[ranger]

As I have said several times, the major issue in training for Mike VB, I think, if he wants to win the Head of the Charles, is to learn to do long UT1 rows at 30 spm.

He needs to do this both OTW and on the erg.

Right now, he does neither.

He rows 60min on the erg at 25 spm rather than 30 spm.

That's a top-end UT2 rate rather than a top-end UT1 rate.

I suspect that Freed did his distance rowing at 32 spm, or even higher.

Mike needs to rate up.

ranger

[johnlvs2run]

It's not one or the other that is needed.

It's both.

And both are _very_ intense, just in different ways.

Rich,

I disagree for the following reason.

Training, especially intense training, is very specific.

Freed's training has more specificity than any other program out there that I've seen.

It is thus quite surprising that NO ONE has picked up and tried Freed's program besides me.

Because you can just look at the program and see this.

What I did was to space out the intense days, like the Portuguese/Moroccan runners, and added much easier rowing for recovery, though still specific at the same meters per stroke, so I was getting the same action and rhythm with every stroke, every time, even in recovery.

The difference is that when you do intense low rate rowing, it takes away from the race specific effects of your training, and this is a detrimental result.

The great majority of intense rowing should always be exactly the same as the speed and intensity of the time trials and races. This is why you see so many rowers who are not able to lift the rating in their races, because they have trained hard at low ratings, instead of training specifically at race paces, ratings, and efforts.

[ranger]

It's not one or the other that is needed.

It's both.

And both are _very_ intense, just in different ways.

Rich,

I disagree for the following reason.

Training, especially intense training, is very specific.

Freed's training has more specificity than any other program out there that I've seen.

It is thus quite surprising that NO ONE has picked up and tried Freed's program besides me.

Because you can just look at the program and see this.

What I did was to space out the intense days, like the Portuguese/Moroccan runners, and added much easier rowing for recovery, though still specific at the same meters per stroke, so I was getting the same action and rhythm with every stroke, every time, even in recovery.

The difference is that when you do intense low rate rowing, it takes away from the race specific effects of your training, and this is a determintal result.

All intense rowing should always be exactly the SAME as the speed and intensity of the time trials and races.

Yes, I agree that the rhythmicity issue is important.

But it has to be done at higher stroking powers to be effective for 2K training.

The best lightweights pull 11-13 SPI.

Freed didn't.

Freed rowed with a weak stroke.

This is _very_ efficient, but it is not effective enough for a quality 2K.

At 10 SPI, you have to rate 36 spm to do 6:36.

At 11 SPI, 36 spm becomes 6:24.

At 12 SPI, 36 spm becomes 6:12.

At 13 SPI, 36 spm becomes 6:04.

I suspect that Freed never rowed anything over 10 SPI.

His stroke didn't had an inadequate range of effectiveness.

You develop the range of effectiveness of your stroke with low rate rowing at high stroking powers.

ranger

[ranger]

Training, especially intense training, is very specific.

I agree entirely.

So, if my goal is a 2K, 1:34 @ 36 spm (11.7 SPI), what kind of training at 8 MPS would you have me do?

The specific training that I like for these purposes is (race pace) 500s, 1:34 @ 36 spm (11.7 SPI).

If you can do 20 race pace 500s, paddling a 500m in between, you can do a 2K at that pace.

40 of them would be even better.

Hail Zatopek!



Would you suggest something else?

This is 8.8 MPS.

If you want to make this sort of thing even tougher, mix in 1Ks with the 500s, maintaining the pace and rate, in crescendoing numbers as a training season goes on.

Training for a mile run is similar, no?

If Freed wanted to do a 2K in 6:16, rather than 6:38, as I am sure he did, why didn't he do some _specific_ training of this sort?

30min rows are not _specific_ training for a 6min row.

If Freed had tried some _specific_ training, he would have found out that what he was doing was inadequate, woefully inadequate.

Freed could barely do _one_ 500m at 1:34.

Why?

He had an ineffective stroke.

He needed to do a lot of low rate training at high stroking power to expand his range of effectiveness.

Working exclusively on efficiency won't get the job done.

ranger

[ranger]

He also just does a few and from that deduces he can do hundreds

Hundreds?

No.

I said I could do 50.

Which I can.

ranger

[ranger]

I will return to my regular 16K/day OTW program

Yes, that is what I am going to do this OTW season, 24K a day.

I have a 6K loop on the Huron river.

I will do it four times a day.

ranger

[ranger]

But you won't race me in a sprint race until when?

When (1) I can put in 20K a day, doing various things, (2) I can do a good bit of my distance rowing at 30 spm, (3) I am doing timed interval workouts on a regular basis, and (4) I have timed myself repeatedly in various conditions over the target distances--1K, 5K, etc.

As I mentioned, I am not doing any of this yet.

In my OTW sessions last year, I only did 10K at the most, and I am not timing myself in anything, much less doing interval workouts.

At the moment, I am just rowing, working on my technical problems, of which there are many.

ranger

[ranger]

Or at least avoid pushing off with your knees so blatantly.

So, post a video showing me how it is done.

I would be interested.

Or perhaps John can.

ranger

[ranger]

John--

Could you post a video doing some pike/standing ab-wheels--on a hard surface, body staight, and always off the ground?

I want to see how they are done properly.

ranger

[ranger]

Nosmo--

Why are you talking to a bunch of 60-year-olds?

Aren't folks such as Nik Fleming (on the erg) and Tom Bohrer (OTW) your peer-group competition?

Do you talk to 60-year-olds because you don't match up at all with those your own age and weight?

Convenient, I guess, but delusional and cowardly, too.

To each his own, I guess.

ranger

[ranger]

Given their 2Ks, I assume that Mike VB and Rocket Roy could only do 20 x 500m @ 1:42.

If I can get this done at 1:34...

Yep.

There's that 8 seconds per 500m again!

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

I would be delighted to come out to Vermont and train with you for a couple of weeks, but only if you would reciprocate and come out to my vacation home in Wisconsin to train with me for a similar period.

Do you know the Great Lakes--or the inland lakes of the upper midwest?

You might enjoy them.

http://www.google.com/maps?q=Door%20Cou ... cQ8wEoAjAA


How about it?

Sounds fun to me.

ranger

[ausrwr]

It's not one or the other that is needed.

It's both.

And both are _very_ intense, just in different ways.

Rich,

I disagree for the following reason.

Training, especially intense training, is very specific.

Freed's training has more specificity than any other program out there that I've seen.

It is thus quite surprising that NO ONE has picked up and tried Freed's program besides me.

Because you can just look at the program and see this.

What I did was to space out the intense days, like the Portuguese/Moroccan runners, and added much easier rowing for recovery, though still specific at the same meters per stroke, so I was getting the same action and rhythm with every stroke, every time, even in recovery.

The difference is that when you do intense low rate rowing, it takes away from the race specific effects of your training, and this is a detrimental result.

The great majority of intense rowing should always be exactly the same as the speed and intensity of the time trials and races. This is why you see so many rowers who are not able to lift the rating in their races, because they have trained hard at low ratings, instead of training specifically at race paces, ratings, and efforts.

I'd question the amount of intense training that you actually need to do. If I had any intention of going back to serious sell-my-soul OTW training, I'd ramp up to probably 15 sessions a week, of which only 3 to 4 would be hard. 2 OTW/1 erg/1 bike. I'd not worry about high rate work for more than 1 session a week until a few weeks before racing.
The rest would be loose UT2 paddling at (shudder) low rates and cycling.

If you do your low rate and high intensity work appropriately, there's no reason why you can't rate high. The English are the best examples of this. Alan Campbell, for example, does the vast majority of his work at low ratings. He can also sprint his single along for 250 or so at 1:30 pace. Doesn't stop him...

[PaulH]

You link contained no evidence I could see.

The link works fine for me and supports the quotation that I posted.

Here is your evidence:
Most rowers use a huge weightlifting-type slug at the catch.
They insist on banging their heads against the wall on the water.

The top rowers, Stephansen, Luini, Ebbesen, row like Freed.

Stephansen rows at 43 plus spm on the erg.

The Danes & Italians row at 39 plus spm on the water.

There's your evidence. Open your eyes and open your mind.

No John, that's an assertion, not evidence. Evidence would be a survey of rowers or coaches, video from a great number of competitions, perhaps a scientific study. You saying the same thing repeatedly is essentially worthless.

[mrfit]

Ranger's Ranking Distance Countdown:
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