The Two Types of Training

[mikvan52]

I will always beat ranger on the water

No evidence for this at all.

If you can't rate up, you'll just ride in my wake.

But you won't race me in a sprint race until when again?

Head racers don't leave the start line all at once, fool. Oh, you must mean a virtual wake... not a real one!

No I won't rate it up.. I'll just win

As I did with this 9500m head race:

Notice the margins I SURPASSED Rob Slocum and Gregg Stone: 23 and 28 seconds respectively... even w/a lousy bow number!... they put me back in the starting order.

"GMS CHALLENGE" Sept. 20, 2009

https://secure.powerhousetiming.com/pow ... raceId=233
.
.

AS the race got underway, I noticed that my rate was lots lower than expected but that (also!) my splits were faster than planned.... I did not want to scull at a rate lower than 24 spm so I let it ride....(faster pace and low rate was the order of business).


here are the splits:
dist. __ split time __ stroke rate __ average
0500 - 1:58 ............25.0................1:58.1
1000 - 1:58 ............24.0................1:58.1
1500 - 1:58 ............24.5................1:58.1
2000 - 1:58 ............25.0................1:58.2
2500 - 1:57 ............24.5................1:58.0
3000 - 1:59 ............24.5................1:58.3
3500 - 2:10 ............25.0................2:00.0 (turning the stake)
4000 - 1:58 ............26.5................1:59.8
4500 - 2:00 ............26.0................1:59.9
5000 - 1:59 ............26.5................1:59.9
5500 - 2:01 ............26.0...............2:00.0
6000 - 2:01.............26.0...............2:00.1
6500 - 2:03.............26.0...............2:00.4
7000 - 2:05.............25.5...............2:00.8
7500 - 2:08.............26.0...............2:01.2
8000 - 2:04.............26.0...............2:01.5
8500 - 2:03.............25.5...............2:01.6
9000 - 2:01.............26.0...............2:01.6
9427 -.........{no data}....................2:01.4

Why not publish your best 9500m piece? Choose any rate you'd like!



edit:
(to put my GMS Challenge effort in perspective: Rob Slocum won the E hwt single 4 times recently at Masters Nationals... Gregg Stone came in 3rd at he Head of the Charles in 2009 and is a former winner of the same race)

[mikvan52]

Note to self:
I should give up this thread.
It's not about training that leads to results.

Ab-Wheels!

What a joke.

Rich: How many ab-wheels do you suggest it will take to win the Head of the Charles?
I'm all ears when it comes to genius training routines.




I just got back from 10k on the Creek... the boat was running smoothly and slowly. Great trickle. Low rate.
Lots of drills.

Did you finish your 50 AB-wheels while I was out?

What a colossal waste of time for a guy who can't balance a boat after 5 million meters of 0TW rowing!

[johnlvs2run]

Notice the margins I SURPASSED Rob Slocum and Gregg Stone: 23 and 28 seconds respectively... even w/a lousy bow number!... they put me back in the starting order.

Obviously a FAKE! ... since you can't get close to Freed in a 5k.

And you have to go back 40 years to when you "think" you might have been able to keep up with him.

[Steve G]

Here are three or four standing ab-wheels.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DjbUepLvsE

ranger

Rich, you're supposed to keep your body straight, and off the ground at all times.

A hard non-slip surface would be better.

He also just does a few and from that deduces he can do hundreds, similar to his erg screen shots of a few metres, nothing more.
Yes I noticed the knee shoves too, stroke needs some work, perhaps 7 year worth

[mikvan52]

Notice the margins I SURPASSED Rob Slocum and Gregg Stone: 23 and 28 seconds respectively... even w/a lousy bow number!... they put me back in the starting order.

Obviously a FAKE! ... since you can't get close to Freed in a 5k.

And you have to go back 40 years to when you "think" you might have been able to keep up with him.

Now I get it! You're being ironic.

How far across the floor does an erg travel during a 5k ?
Compare that to 5k OTW. I go lots further than all of us do on the erg... Freed included.

NO ONE COULD "GET CLOSE TO FREED"... HE ERGED ALONE.

[Byron Drachman]

Most rowers use a huge weightlifting-type slug at the catch.

Hi John,
Maybe you are referring to the "front loaded drive," which is mentioned here:
slides from a talk:
http://www.durhamboat.com/FMP.pdf
some of the text from the talk:
http://www.durhamboat.com/FM_Part1.pdf

I suspect most (OTW)rowers would not describe the first part of the drive as a weightlifting-type slug but maybe it is simply the terminology. I know one coach who says the first part of the drive is (roughly) analogous to a clean so with that meaning I think the analogy is OK. But of course there are differences.

What a colossal waste of time for a guy who can't balance a boat after 5 million meters of 0TW rowing!

Hi Mike,
The subject of the ab-wheel first came up in a thread about core exercises, the idea being that with a strong core a rower is less like to suffer injuries from rowing. The ab-wheel from the knees, not doing pikes, is one of the core maintenance exercises demonstrated at the Craftsbury web site. It should be a nice way to do a little extra core work in a short amount of time but the way Ranger is doing the standing ab-rolls is so wrong--what a great way to get a back injury.

About balancing the boat: I couple of years ago I suggested that he do some square blade rowing to help work on the balance but said he doesn't do drills because he prefers to take perfect strokes. Too funny for words.

[kini62]

Over the next five weeks, I think I will best my 16.7K 60min row from 2003 pretty soundly and pull well over 17K, even though I am now seven years older.
ranger

You're 8 years older. You were 51 at the time.

My technique is much better.
ranger

Technique on the erg as FAR less to do with pace than on the water. Anyone can learn the proper technique on the erg in a matter of hours.



As for setting that 1 hour record, since you can't even pull 2K at that pace, why the hell do you think anyone will take you seriously.

You're one GIANT gas bag. Perhaps if you were on the water actually rowing and had a tube up your ass, plumbed through the hull of your shell you probably could beat mikvan52 by farting your way down the course.

Gene

[pmacaula]

What is your time in a single at the Head of the Charles?...what you say seems obvious...It doesn't change anything that I am doing...I am not entering the Head of the Charles for two years...I am still learning to row well OTW...I am not racing at all OTW at the moment...

Ranger -
For a guy who is in the September of your years, your serialized approach to improvement is puzzling. Seven years of sculling should be more than enough to learn to row reasonably well, though doing so for that long without external coaching will almost certainly have ingrained more than a few bad habits. Benchmarking your speed in a few races would help you figure out where to focus your energies in terms of improvement.

I am not sure why you want to know my personal stats, as it seems similar requests of others have lead to pointless ad hominem attacks based on relative performance on the erg.
If you are truly motivating to find the info, I have the same name on C2UK & my blog has a full description of my HOCR 2009 experience, including time. You can find the other information on the C2 site on my erg times,age, etc if you choose to. I will not be drawn into a pissing contest.

I did my first two erg races last year (one good, one bad) and did not do any this year due to family & work commitments. I don't race my training & would be happy to erg online on RowPro with you any time. I normally erg online at 7:30pm ET Monday through Thursday & then by arrangement with a good friend on Friday through Sunday.

That said, the docks at our club go in next weekend. At that time, I will return to my regular 16K/day OTW program and will reduce my erging schedule significantly by the end of April. I tried keeping up the erging ast year, but found it reduced the quality of my OTW workouts while not materially improving my conditioning.

My plan to improve this year includes getting more coaching - primarily on technique, entering some sprint races (only did head races last year) and doing regular workouts with a friend who has won the 40+ HOCR 1x and still races competitively in the 2x. In other words, learning to row better on a number of fronts all at the same time.

Glad you have a plan & hope it works out for you.
Hope to see you on RP or at a regatta some time soon.

Sincerely, Patrick.

[Nosmo]

Note to self:
I should give up this thread.

Most intelligent thing said on this thread in a long time. (not trying to insult you. There have been many very intelligent things said by you, Patrick and others, it is just that saying them to Ranger isn't too smart)

Ab-Wheels!

What a joke.

I use them as part of my core workouts. It is a very good device, but the way ranger does them is a joke.

I just got back from 10k on the Creek... the boat was running smoothly and slowly. Great trickle. Low rate.
Lots of drills.

Sounds like a great time. You should have a great year. I may head to VT this spring to visit my parents. Perhaps I may be able join you OTW for a workout.

Did a good 15K OTW today. Mostly moderate rates. Yesterday did 30K, it was supposed to be a steady L3, but the last hour I ended up racing a men's 8 who was doing "an hour of power". I totally smoked them in my 1x (at least a boat length per 250m). Their technique left a hell of a lot to be desired. Not been doing the erg much at all--too much isn't good for my OTW technique.

[Nosmo]

All of these arguements with John about Freed seems to me to be more about how John trains and ergs rather then about Freed. Seriously why would anyone really be so concerned about very old unverified times? It is rather moot at this point. But John's defense of Freed looks more like he is defending his own way of doing things rather then defending Freed's results.

I will say this somewhat in John's defense: When I got my Model D and got back in to erging several years ago, My "Paul's constant" was under 3 seconds per distance doubling. I was coming from an endurance cycling background and was doing mostly distance work on the erg. (The cycling was a long way from steady state. I live where there are lots of hills and when one rides in groups there is a fair amount of very intense efforts of various lengths--essentially intervals.) It is totally plausible to me that someone who doesn't do any interval work and does a lot of distance could have a significantly lower "Paul's constant".
Don't know or really care if Freed is a fake.

What I really disagree with John about the claim that way he and Freed train is much harder then doing interval work. It is for some people, but I for one find it easier to knock out a hard half marathon then to do 4x2000m or 4x1000. I found it much easier train for a marathon on the erg then to seriously do the Wolverine Plan. Starting out when I was training for the marathon my Paul's constant was about 2.8. On the WP it increased to about 4.3

[johnlvs2run]

It is totally plausible to me that someone who doesn't do any interval work and does a lot of distance could have a significantly lower "Paul's constant".

Freed's program does contain repetitions.

The difference is that the repetitions are harder and longer.

Most rowers trudge along at low rates, which of course results in very little intensity over distance.

[ranger]

Starting out when I was training for the marathon my Paul's constant was about 2.8. On the WP it increased to about 4.3

Hmm.

I don't think you want to do top-end UT1 (e.g., 60min) at 2K + 14.

You want to do top-end UT2 (e.g., 30K) at 2K + 14.

Or, at least, this is what the Interactive Plan suggests.

ranger

[johnlvs2run]

I don´t do any speed sessions but my training consists almost exclusively of steady state rowing with sessions mainly 70+X minutes. Even in my (a bit special) interval sessions (normally once a week) my splits are more than 4s off the splits of my 2k PB. But even as a pure long distance specialist without ANY specific 2k training (or sharpening as some people would describe it) I managed splits for my 2k about 5.5s below my capability for 6k and about 10.5s below that for a HM.

One possible difference is that prior to my 5 & 6k PB's I was rowing more than 40 minutes twice a week at those paces, and more than 20 minutes a week slightly faster. That is 100 minutes a week at 5/6k pace. My results were 5k at 2k+ 2.3 and 6k at 2k+2.7.

This is a big difference from rowing 70+X minutes, which were also included.
I feel that just rowing steady distance would not result in sustaining as much of the 2k speed over distance.

The other thing is the rating. Many rowers drop their ratings way down, especially over distance.
I kept the meters per stroke the same for the 2k, 5k, 6k, halfmarathon and marathon, with no drop off at all.

[ranger]

It is totally plausible to me that someone who doesn't do any interval work and does a lot of distance could have a significantly lower "Paul's constant".

Freed's program does contain repetitions.

The difference is that the repetitions are harder and longer.

Most rowers trudge along at low rates, which of course results in very little intensity over distance.

No, John.

It's not one or the other that is needed.

It's both.

And both are _very_ intense, just in different ways.

Low rate rowing (20 spm) is done at high stroking powers with the emphasis on the drive--length, leverage, skeletal-motor capacities (quickness, strength, endurance, etc.). This is work on effectiveness.

High rate rowing (30 spm) is done at lower stroking powers with an emphasis on recoveries--rhythmicity, and aerobic capacity. This is work on efficiency.

2K racing blends the two and is done at a stroking power between the two. Good racing demands both effectiveness and efficiency. It also demands that you bring up your anaerobic capacities and do a lot of rowing beyond your anaerobic threshold.

I do indeed agree with you, though, that in and around this forum, work on efficiency is slighted much more than work on effectiveness.

I think that even Caviston did this.

I suspect that Caviston did his long Level 3 rows at something more like UT2 than UT1.

The interactive plan also suggests that UT1 rowing be done at 24 spm, etc.

Nope.

On this, PaulS is right, I think.

It should be done at 10 MPS, which starts with _very_ light stroking (8 SPI), never uses heavy stroking, and only uses even moderately strong stroking if you can do it at 30 spm and above.

This is "threshold" rowing, and by and large, I think what you say about it is exactly right.

For good lightweights, the norm for 'threshold' rowing is "double-the-d, add 3," like Freed, not "double-the-d, add 5."

ranger

[ranger]

the way ranger does them is a joke

Then post a video of how you use an ab-wheel.

Can you do a standing ab-wheel at all?

ranger