The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
User avatar
Byron Drachman
10k Poster
Posts: 1124
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 9:26 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Byron Drachman » March 19th, 2010, 7:55 pm

Nosmo wrote:I'm pretty sure that the according to US Rowing, one remains a novice for 1 year from your first race.
Hi Nosmo,
Around here at the local regattas the entry form usually defines a novice as someone in the same calendar year as the first year of rowing.
For example, I found an old entry form from the Ann Arbor Invitational in 2007.
Novice--Learned to row in the calendar year 2007
Ranger wrote:OTW, when I rate 30 spm, I go 2:00 pace.
Try looking at your Garmin instead of your uncalibrated Speed Coach.

Cue for Ranger: My Speed Coach works fine...

whp4
6k Poster
Posts: 665
Joined: March 15th, 2006, 10:09 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by whp4 » March 19th, 2010, 8:12 pm

Byron Drachman wrote: For example, I found an old entry form from the Ann Arbor Invitational in 2007.
Novice--Learned to row in the calendar year 2007
Given how long it has taken him to learn to erg, he could be a novice for the better part of a decade :lol:

User avatar
Byron Drachman
10k Poster
Posts: 1124
Joined: March 23rd, 2006, 9:26 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by Byron Drachman » March 19th, 2010, 8:37 pm

whp4 wrote:
Byron Drachman wrote: For example, I found an old entry form from the Ann Arbor Invitational in 2007.
Novice--Learned to row in the calendar year 2007
Given how long it has taken him to learn to erg, he could be a novice for the better part of a decade :lol:
Good point:
Ranger wrote:I bought a 1x (Peinert26) in the summer of 2003 and have been rowing on the water quite a bit since then.
Ranger wrote:Feb 7, 2006:I have just been learning a quality OTW stroke. That project is now complete.
March 17, 2010: I am just a novice OTW.
I have never raced at all.
I am still just learning to row.
I didn't start rowing OTW until I was almost 55 years old.
So, lots of work still to do.
In 2006 he had completed the project of learning a quality OTW stroke. Now he has regressed to learning to row with lots of work to do. Yikes!

User avatar
mikvan52
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2648
Joined: March 9th, 2007, 3:49 pm
Location: Vermont

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by mikvan52 » March 19th, 2010, 9:36 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Rich!

You are so funny I cannot even reply!

Thanks for brightening up my day with your BS!
I love that part about how OTW rowers aren't tough enough to erg!

B) :lol: B) :lol: B) :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Keep on posting: it's a riot!

When your first OTW race again? I want to be there...

User avatar
jliddil
6k Poster
Posts: 717
Joined: February 7th, 2008, 11:44 am
Location: North Haven, CT

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by jliddil » March 19th, 2010, 9:37 pm

Boys boys please be kind his mommy just died
JD
Age: 51; H: 6"5'; W: 172 lbs;

pmacaula
1k Poster
Posts: 130
Joined: September 22nd, 2008, 4:50 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by pmacaula » March 19th, 2010, 10:45 pm

ranger wrote:Large fields of intensely competitive, well-conditioned, experienced 60-year-old scullers?...I will have to see it to believe it.
Ranger - it is all relative.
For large fields at OTW regattas, the best way to see it is to go to a regatta and compete. I recommend the following regattas: Cdn Henley Masters, US Masters Nationals, the World Masters Championships (in St. Catharines this September) and HOCR.
There were fifty five 60+ scullers in the 1x at the '09 HOCR (no ltwt category). The top 7 were within 5% of one another. By comparison, there were a total of 15 ergers in the 60+ Ltwt category (I think 7 in 60-64) at CRASH-Bs. As you well know, there are rarely more than one or two 60+ ltwt ergers (let alone competitive ones) at smaller races.
Clearly you will see more competition at OTW regattas than you have been seeing on the erg.
Using the number of entrants in the C2 ranking tables as a proxy for competitive racing is not useful for reasons that area too obvious to enumerate.
ranger wrote:..I am not presuming anything about how fast I can be OTW, but isn't it a little more straightforward than you are making out? Don't you just gaze at your speed coach from day to day and note how fast you are going? In the end, isn't that what wins races? "Tricks up their sleeves"?...Not sure what you mean...If I can rate 30 spm in head races, what then?..but perhaps you can explain.
Assuming you are just being ornery by taking the extreme position that poor conditioning can be entirely overcome by race tactics and experience. You know as well as anyone that at the top of a decent field, everyone is well conditioned.
As for explaining, I suggest focusing on head races, which you appear to have expressed interest in doing competitively.

At a race such as HOCR, there are sharp turns that incorporate obstacles (bridges). Headwinds, tailwinds and crosswinds ALL hit you over the course of the race (the course hits all points of the compass) and boats start every 10 seconds. There are only a few stretches on the course where one can really open it up and not worrying about turns/bridges/buoys or asking for or giving way to other racers.
To win at HOCR, one needs to minimize the negative impact of all of these things, including decisions such as when to speed up to pass someone before an obstacle (or slow down until past it, then pass afterward) in order to optimize average speed. It also really helps if you can row the minimum possible distance. Going fast over a longer course is still slow.
A good current example is the HOCR Championship 1x. Mahe Drysdale, the reigning world 1x champion, came 4th in '09 and 6th in '08. In '09, the only one of the people in front of Drysdale to make the top 18 (A,B,C finals) at the '09 Worlds, Lassi Karonen, was 9th - 17s slower over 2K than Drysdale. Though one can question the value of comparing times between different heats, 17s is a lot. At HOCR, Karonen beat Drysdale by 1s over 5K.
The person with by far the fastest raw time at HOCR '09 was Nathan Cohen - 11s faster than Drysdale on the course. Unfortunately for Cohen, he picked up a 10s penalty for a buoy violation, pushing him to 3rd, just ahead of Drysdale. In '08, Cohen won the Championship 1x at HOCR, beating Drysdale by 21s.
In short, Cohen and Karonen appear to be better at head races than Drysdale. Some of it may be because they were taking the HOCR more seriously than Drysdale, but a material component is because Cohen and Karonen are better at maximizing their speed over a winding course full of obstacles, even though Drysdale is clearly MUCH faster than either of them in a straight line.
Though one should be very careful about generalizing from personal experience. I will mention my personal experience as decently-conditioned novice masters sculler in '09 for illustrative purposes.
I was fastest relative to experienced scullers in relatively straight head races in relatively smooth water. It helped a lot that I had raced most of the courses multiple times, but as a much younger sweep oarsman with a coxie doing the steering.
In a 1x, once the course gets twisty, the obstacles multiply and the wind/waves become material considerations, it gets a LOT harder to keep on pace consistently. Getting the right line on a turn & maximizing speed is a lot harder than putting your blinders on and going in a straight line. As with anything else, experience counts, as I am sure you know from your long distance running. Also as you say, training is not racing & confusing the two is a mistake.

Hope you can make it to some OTW races this season. They are a lot of fun and you will learn a lot.

Cheers. Patrick.

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 20th, 2010, 3:04 am

pmacaula wrote: You know as well as anyone that at the top of a decent field, everyone is well conditioned.
Well, if we take the erg as a measure of conditioning, in the 60s ranks, for those my size, really, no one can do much better than 7:00/300 watts for 2K.

I suspect this will even be true for Mike VB, when he turns 60.

70% of that gives a top-end speed over 2K OTW at about 1:58 pace and therefore a top-end over 1K of about 1:55 and over 5K of about 2:05 OTW.

So the baseline is set.

I have been racing boats on the water all my life.

I know all about wind, rain, cold, current, obstacles, etc.

Yep, these things slow you down.

Yep.

It takes experience to negotiate such things.

Who would think otherwise?

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 20th, 2010, 3:11 am

Byron Drachman wrote:In 2006 he had completed the project of learning a quality OTW stroke. Now he has regressed to learning to row with lots of work to do.
Yep.

My stroke on the erg is now fine.

So, this summer, I will spend a lot more time OTW, 20K a day, if I can, rather than just 10K.

In my work on the erg, from 2003-2006, I learned to row effectively, building my stroking power up to rowing well (13 SPI) and beyond (16 SPI).

From 2006 until now, I have spent my time learning to row efficiently, building the rate on this stroke up to 30 spm, adding distance rowing to trudging at low rates.

It takes a while to get both of these tasks done well.

Most don't even try to do either.

Most 60s lightweights settle at 9 SPI for a stroking power and 27 spm for a distance rating--or something like.

Different world.

The difference is 10 seconds per 500m.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 20th, 2010, 3:49 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 20th, 2010, 3:33 am

mikvan52 wrote: love that part about how OTW rowers aren't tough enough to erg!
Sorry, if I am misrepresenting things.

There are a lot of OTW 60s lightweights who are great on the erg but who just don't bother to come out for winter regattas?

Who?

What are their erg times?

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 20th, 2010, 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 20th, 2010, 3:45 am

Mike--

You mean there are a bunch of 60s lightweights out there who can pull 16:30 for 5K on the erg but who just don't bother to record it and send it in to C2?

Who are these guys?

Can I get to know them?

Do they come to the Craftsbury camps, etc.?

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

PaulH
6k Poster
Posts: 993
Joined: March 15th, 2006, 10:03 pm
Location: Hants, UK
Contact:

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by PaulH » March 20th, 2010, 4:18 am

ranger wrote: My experience with OTW rowers is just the opposite, especially 60-year-old OTW rowers.

Most OTW rowers hate the erg because it is hard and objective.

They are just out to get some sun and have some fun.

They could care less who wins the races and they certainly aren't trying to win.

They don't consider themselves athletes at all.
Then your experience is limited and flawed. There are, for sure, plenty of rowers who are just out for fun. Some of these are still very talented rowers, but have priorities outside rowing. But there are just as many, if not more, who are committed and talented and athletic, and care beyond reason about beating everybody on the water. A great many of these do avoid the erg, but that's primarily because the erg isn't the best way to train for OTW; OTW is, so that's what they do. They've correctly identified that the conditioning gained on the erg is of no use if you can't translate it into forward motion, and the erg doesn't help there. Hence it is almost always better to work on technique and conditioning on the water, practicing holding your technique while improving your fitness.

I know you don't do humility, and that's fine, but speaking of things you have so little knowledge of makes you look, once again, foolish.

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 20th, 2010, 4:33 am

PaulH wrote:But there are just as many, if not more, who are committed and talented and athletic, and care beyond reason about beating everybody on the water.
I am not talking about all masters rowers--20s. 30s, 40s, and 50s.

I am talking _60-year-olds_.

There are hoards of chiseled _60-year-olds_ out there, muscles rippling, lungs burning, caring beyond reason about beating everybody OTW?

_60-year-olds_ who are tough as hell and love to push themselves to the limit physically, spending hours and hours on it every day?

And these guys just don't erg because ergs are static and getting tough as hell moving your boat really comes from learning how to do things like feather, steer, and turn?

O.K., if you say so.

I guess I am just foolish.

I'll certainly keep notes on this as I travel around to regattas over the next few years.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 20th, 2010, 4:42 am

When I am really relaxed with my distance rowing, as I am beginning to be again, I prefer 11 SPI, 1:42 @ 30 spm.

So, there's my Head of the Charles stroke.

70% of 330 watts is 210 watts, 1:58.6.

Sure, and then turns, wind, cold, current, obstacles, etc., all slow you down.

So that is the limit to my cruising speed OTW.

In terms of my distance training on the erg, the ultimate goal, I suppose, would be to do that 1:42 @ 30 spm for 60min, that is, under my anaerobic threshold.

That would be amazing.

So, the task is set.

3-to-1 ratio.

145 df.

Heels set.

Short, fast drive.

Gigantic recovery.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 20th, 2010, 4:55 am

If I could can 30 spm for 60min, then I might be able to rate 31 spm for 10K, 32 spm for 30min, 33 spm for 6K, and 34 spm for 5K.

That would be perfect.

11 SPI @ 34 spm is 1:38 or 16:20 for 5K.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

User avatar
NavigationHazard
10k Poster
Posts: 1789
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 1:11 pm
Location: Wroclaw, Poland

Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by NavigationHazard » March 20th, 2010, 5:08 am

What makes you think you're actually achieving a drive:recovery ratio of 1:3 at 30 spm?

On an erg, 1:3 typically is a ratio for ratings in the high teens-low 20s. At 30 spm you're much more likely to be at or under 1:2.
67 MH 6' 6"

Locked