The Two Types of Training

[JohnBove]

She loved costumes, rituals, parties, decorations, pranks, games, masks, holidays, etc.

And, undoubtedly, finally being rid of you.

She loved a good laugh.

Sorry; take that back.

[NavigationHazard]

Olympic rowers are invariably big, tall, heavy guys, prepared only to do well in a 2k.
They are mostly not at all capable of sustaining their speed over distance.

Well, except for the LW men. And the women, whether open class or LW. Neither of those groups are ever "big tall guys."

Even among big tall guys, there's Graham Benton's 5:45 or so over 2k and 18,221m for 60' (absolute reported world best). Or Mahe Drysdale, 5:39 and change over 2k on an erg and second only to Benton for 60' with 18128m. Benton also holds the all-time absolute reported world best for a HM. 2k absolute record holder and Olympic champ Rob Waddell holds the absolute reported 5k record as well. As for 6k, I can tell you for a fact that the "official" absolute C2 records are close to a minute slower than what the big boys actually row in training. British Olympian Andy Triggs-Hodge (for one) has gone farther over 30' than the "official" C2 record. And French Olympian Jean Rolland holds the all-time absolute reported world best for 10k. How on earth can you say they're prepared to do well only in a 2k and can't sustain their speed over distance.

[whp4]

Olympic rowers are invariably big, tall, heavy guys, prepared only to do well in a 2k.
They are mostly not at all capable of sustaining their speed over distance.

So, is Xeno not a big, tall, heavy guy, or is his 2:30:08.8 FM not a good example of sustaining speed over distance? That 6K in 19:02.8 isn't too shabby, either.

What about the 18,221 hour done by Graham Benton a few years back, or Mahe Drysdale's 18,128? Yeah, so far Benton is only a wannabe Olympian, but I think this trio clearly demonstrates that Olympic caliber rowers can deliver the goods for substantially more than 2k if they are inclined to do so. For most of them, there really isn't any reason to bother rowing an all-out long distance piece and logging the time.

Another ex-Olympian with a handful of WRs at varying distances comes to mind who really doesn't match the "big, tall, heavy guy" profile: Joan van Blom

[Citroen]

Why would you want to do them, if you can row well?
Rowing well is harder on your abs, and more enjoyable, because it works the whole body, not just your abs.

Would anybody care to take a stab at translating the last two quotes from Ranger-speak to ordinary English?

It appears the task was harder than I thought. Ranger-speak is a confusing language requiring years of study. Part of the confusion comes from the use of so many false friends. So I will give a hint: A translation of the Ranger-speak in the last quote to ordinary English might start like this:

I actually tried to do standing ab-wheels and I am unable...

I translated that as "I don't have an ab-wheel and I wouldn't know how to use one anyway. I'll stick with hauling anchor on the ergo."

[ranger]

I don't have an ab-wheel and I wouldn't know how to use one anyway

No, as I said, I ordered an ab-wheel and now have it.

Yes, I can do standing ab-wheels.

Tomorrow, I'll post a video of a few of them.

Can you do them?

ranger

[mikvan52]

I can do standing ab-wheels.

"Priority One" for ranger... gym-monkey tricks.

Hey! Can you hang by your prehensile tail too?


Can you stand in a registration line at an OTW race, sign-up, put your boat in the water, warm up, race 1k upright?
Have you ever done it? Evidently, No.

Can you talk endlessly about comparisons of erging (about which you've experienced a lot) with rowing races (about which you experienced nothing)? Evidently, Yes!

Thanks for your outstanding principles on all things rowing which you seem to randomly invent and all the blind alleys/sidetracking (like discussing Freed and ab-wheels) into which you lead us in order to avoid actually OTW rowing for the record.

I given up hope that there's going to be any substance about which we could discuss anything (Subj: rowing as it applies to erging in rangerland)

I do have some friendly advice should you want to surprise all of us and prove me wrong: Try entering the Club 1x at the HOCR this year.... All ages can compete. It's a good way to cut your teeth in this part of the sport.. It's an honest avenue for the novice and a step towards your stated goal of sculling as a 60 year old in the 60's only division.

also: I was serious the other day in the post about Craftsbury and Black Fly... a good combo: train and race in one trip!

Also: within a "Craftsbury week" they stage a fun Head Race at the end of each program... a 2+ mile race the last day among Craftsbury campers... also very low key... one full length of the Hosmer Pond.. Hence "Head of the Hosmer"... you'd enjoy it I hope... everyone seems to

[johnlvs2run]

Graham Benton's 5:45 or so over 2k and 18,221m for 60'

98.84 - 86.25 = 12.6 seconds / not very good sustaining of speed

Eskild Ebbesen: 100 - 90.8 = 9.6 seconds / a bit better

The fastest 1500 runners are not close to the fastest over distance. The same for rowing.

[NavigationHazard]

What part of "No one on the planet has ever ranked a better 1-hr row than Graham Benton" is so hard for you to fathom?

The main reason your precious Ebbesen looks "better" {sic] at sustaining speed is that he lacks the speed to begin with. At his best he was more than 20 seconds slower than Benton has gone over 2k. And Benton isn't done improving.

Don't think for an instant that the big-name international HW rowers aren't phenomenal endurance specimens. That's true of both the boys and the girls. If you knew anything whatsoever about their training you'd know that for competitive reasons they and their coaches don't like to advertise their fitness levels by ranking long training pieces.

[mikvan52]

Anyone want to pick out differences in technique between good sculling and good erging?


(Also)
What are Benton's times OTW? Do they beat Elskid's record?

[Nosmo]

also: I was serious the other day in the post about Craftsbury and Black Fly... a good combo: train and race in one trip!

Also: within a "Craftsbury week" they stage a fun Head Race at the end of each program... a 2+ mile race the last day among Craftsbury campers... also very low key... one full length of the Hosmer Pond.. Hence "Head of the Hosmer"... you'd enjoy it I hope... everyone seems to

Totally agree! Having done this, it was a really good vacation. I had been bugging Craftsbury for many years to combine a camp with a trip to a race and they finally did it last year with the Green Mountain Regatta. Hopefully they will do it this year with the Black Fly also. It would have made my life a lot easier if they had done it sooner. I love the Black Fly one of the top two or three races I've ever done. Not to be missed. Best if you are in really good shape--rowing three times a day for a week, including doing the Head of the Hosmer, doesn't leave one very fresh for the Black Fly. But it is really worth it anyway.

Mike, what about doing a camp with Buzz Congram instead of Craftsbury? I'm think I would give him a try next (but it might depend on who is teaching at Craftsbury).

[mikvan52]

Speaking of Elskid:

Please consider listening to the commentary on this race (between 1k and 1500m)
Interesting points about the speed of Danish lwt 4s vs Redgrave and crew...

[mikvan52]

Mike, what about doing a camp with Buzz Congram instead of Craftsbury? I'm think I would give him a try next (but it might depend on who is teaching at Craftsbury).

If you want superior individualized attn. Come visit and get coached by Buzz.
He's my OTW coach.

I don't want to make this thread too commercial but will say Buzz is offering a special program in the week before Black Fly.

PM me and/or check the "rowskills" link below

I have nothing but respect and gratitude for Craftsbury which has so much to offer and is run by our hosts here on this blog.
I could not have reached where i am now w/o having gone to Craftsbury!

[johnlvs2run]

The main reason your precious Ebbesen looks "better" {sic] at sustaining speed is that he lacks the speed to begin with. At his best he was more than 20 seconds slower than Benton has gone over 2k. And Benton isn't done improving.

That is only if you ignore that Benton does not carry his weight.

Ebbesen's watts per kilo are much higher. Ebbesen easily wins over Benton for an hour race on the water.

Don't think for an instant that the big-name international HW rowers aren't phenomenal endurance specimens.

There's a big difference between a 2k and an hour or a marathon.

If you knew anything whatsoever about their training you'd know that for competitive reasons they and their coaches don't like to advertise their fitness levels by ranking long training pieces.

The fastest rowers on the water for 2k of which Benton is not one, are not the fastest rowers over distance.

- - - - - - -

Freed was not the fastest over a 2k, but continues to be the fastest 50+ lwt for the 5k through half marathon.

[NavigationHazard]

News flash: they give the medal to the rower who finishes first, not the one with the best watts/kilogram of body weight ratio. Once again, what part of "no one on the planet has ever ranked a better 1-hr erg piece than Graham Benton" is so difficult?

If you want an actual Olympian who's the fastest ever over 2k OTW in a 1x, what part of "no one on the planet except Graham Benton has ever ranked a better 1-hr erg piece than Olympic bronze medallist and four-time world champion single sculler Mahe Drysdale" is so difficult? Note that "no one on the planet except Graham Benton" includes Eskild Ebbesen, and every other lightweight who's ever lived.

Moreover neither Ebbesen nor Benton is a single sculler. Ebbesen rows (or maybe, rowed) almost exclusively in the LW men's 4x while Benton rows sweep. You might as well claim that Ebbesen is a better LW french horn player than Benton is at heavyweight dentistry. You'd have nearly as much basis for comparison.

Finally, there are no 1-hour races in single sculls.

[ranger]

I do have some friendly advice

Mike--

I love good advice and would love to take yours.

But you'll have to show me a hell of a lot better rowing for it to be even vaguely reasonable for me to take your advice, however friendly.

If you row so well, Mike, given that I am just your size and two years older than you, I can't for the life of me understand why you can't just put the dial on something like 30 spm and 11.7 SPI and row for an hour or so.

30 spm is not a very high rate.

And 11.7 SPI is not a very high stroking power.

This combination is _very_ efficient--10 MPS--and just not that hard to do.

Once you get used to it and trained up for it, if you really row well, as you say you do, you should be able to do this combination of rate and stroking power with a nice little UT1 HR tucked under your anaerobic threshold.

I can now do this, but you can't come within 12 seconds per 500m of it.

12 seconds per 500m?



Wow.

If we row for an hour, I beat you by over a mile.

Why should I take you advice if you are that bad?

I don't see any motivation for it at all.

If you can show me some better rowing, in particular, rowing that is better than mine, _considerably_ better than mine, that I would be delighted to consider your advice.

But why would anyone want to listen to someone who is a lot worse than they are?

Go figure.

I want to get better and better as the years go by, not worse and worse, like you.

I'll keep checking the rankings for a better 60min score from you, but I am not holding my breath, really.

You'll need to do something pretty radically different with your technique and training to get any better, especially as you are aging.

But you are so smug about what you are doing already, anything of this sort would be surprising in the extreme.

You just can't be arsed.

You think you're already great.

So there is no need to get any better.

In fact, no need to resist getting worse.

To each his own, I guess.

ranger