The Two Types of Training

[ranger]

When is ranger's first race on the water?

In terms of racing, my major focus until the end of April is on the erg.

I want to race all of the races by then and enter the results in the 50s lwt rankings.

Including 2K.

I am still just a novice OTW, Mike.

But I am getting better and better.

You can't ask for anything more than steady improvement.

The most intriguing thing to me now is to see whether I can do this distance erging stroke (30 spm, 3-to-1 ratio, etc.) OTW.

If so, the game is won.

ranger

[rjw]

I am still just a novice OTW,

Hey Rich - the definition of "novice" for rowing is "having less than one calender-year’s worth of rowing experience" which you know.

Get over it, you are far beyond being a novice by any definition except your own.

[ranger]

I am still just a novice OTW,

Hey Rich - the definition of "novice" for rowing is "having less than one calender-year’s worth of rowing experience" which you know.

Get over it, you are far beyond being a novice by any definition except your own.

Perhaps.

Then again, as you know from the forum here, I like my own definitions of things.



At least in terms of racing, I won't consider myself a novice anymore when I am doing standard OTW interval workouts and longer "pieces," know what my expected times are on these rows, and have competed in several sprint regattas and head races.

If rowers normally do this during their first year of sculling, more power to them.

But I haven't done anything like this yet.

To this point, I have just been rowing as much as I can, or want to, trying to figure out all of the things I am doing wrong.

When I want to work on some weakness, I always have a long list of things to choose from.



ranger

[johnlvs2run]

my mother passed away last night, peacefully and comfortably.

She had congestive heart failure and could no longer breathe.

Great lady.

She had a great life.

Sorry, Rich. I'm glad she had a great life.

[johnlvs2run]

Here's an apposite link to an old (2005) thread on Freed:

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =Rod+Freed

Too bad the archives now only go back to 2004.

I've never witnessed anyone who could hold a 1:43 for a 6k as a matter of a "regular workout" and not be at a 1:36 for a 2k time trial, if not faster.

It's a mystery, surely though, that someone who could consistently erg at 1:44 for 30 minutes as 50% of a training session could only pull 1:39s for 2K

My 6k PB was at 2k + 2.7 at the time it was done, quite similar to the difference between the 2k and 6k for Freed.

I still try to do everything at a race pace). Heart rates are quite high after each piece (186-192 beats per minute at 30 seconds, back down to 144-156 bpm at 1 minute: resting heart rate 60-65 bpm).

Maximum heart rates indicate maximum effort, not 50 percent effort.

[snowleopard]

Here's an apposite link to an old (2005) thread on Freed:

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =Rod+Freed

Too bad the archives now only go back to 2004.

I've never witnessed anyone who could hold a 1:43 for a 6k as a matter of a "regular workout" and not be at a 1:36 for a 2k time trial, if not faster.

It's a mystery, surely though, that someone who could consistently erg at 1:44 for 30 minutes as 50% of a training session could only pull 1:39s for 2K

My 6k PB was at 2k + 2.7 at the time it was done, quite similar to the difference between the 2k and 6k for Freed.

I still try to do everything at a race pace). Heart rates are quite high after each piece (186-192 beats per minute at 30 seconds, back down to 144-156 bpm at 1 minute: resting heart rate 60-65 bpm).

Maximum heart rates indicate maximum effort, not 50 percent effort.

Eh? Who said anything about %age effort? I was referring to duration. Furthermore, we have no detail on actual HR across the piece so we cannot draw conclusions about %age effort other than the man was clearly working hard. All he says is that HR was max after each piece. If he rowed the last 1K of a 30 minute piece at max that would produce max HR. Doesn't make the whole piece 100%. And besides, do you know anyone who can row at max HR for 30 minutes? No, I didn't think so.

Paul's Law predicts a 6:16 2K for an 8600m 30 minute piece.

(No idea what your numbers are. And anyway, you're not Rod Freed.)

[ranger]

Heart rates are quite high after each piece (186-192 beats per minute)

Well, there is part of the story.

If Freed could still get his heart rate to 192 bpm (or above) when he was 53, given the "threshold" training that he did for decades, he might have a _very_ high anaerobic threshold, despite his age.

If his anaerobic threshold is something like mine (87% HRR), his anaerobic threshold could have been over 180 bpm.

That's impressive.

Yep, if you train like Freed and have an anaerobic threshold of 180 bpm, all you have to do is stroke lightly and raise the rate and you go pretty darn fast for long distances.

Up to a limit.

1:44 pace seemed to be just about it for his aerobic rowing.

If he pulled 10 SPI, he could do that rating 29 spm.

1:41 was AT.

At paces faster than that, he probably ran out of rate.

To do 1:40, he needed to rate 35 spm.

ranger

[ranger]

Paul's Law predicts a 6:16 2K for an 8600m 30 minute piece.

Sure, for someone with balanced training and balanced abilities.

But that's just the point.

LIke NavHaz, who imbalances his training wildly away from efficiency toward effectiveness, Freed's training was wildly imbalanced away from effectiveness toward efficiency.

When it comes to doing a quality 2K, you have to study both subjects to get an 'A.'

Do you know of anyone other than NavHaz who can do 2:54 for 1K but struggles with 6:30 for 2K?

For me, 2:54 for 1K would predict 6:06 for 2K.

ranger

[hjs]

I still try to do everything at a race pace). Heart rates are quite high after each piece (186-192 beats per minute at 30 seconds, back down to 144-156 bpm at 1 minute: resting heart rate 60-65 bpm).

Strangly high rest rate also for a trained man.

[NavigationHazard]

Freed's 6k pace was 2k + 1.7. That's a long way from 2.7 -- 12 seconds better over the piece, to be exact.

There's a predictor spreadsheet in circulation called "Lactate Training Bands.xls". It's apparently based on a regression equation derived from training results of the Great Britain viii that won the Olympic gold medal at the Sydney games (the basic equation is Pace/500 = .0006(distance in meters)^0.0735. If I'm interpreting it correctly, the tested boat averages were 5:54/1:28.5 pace for 2k and 15:45/1:34.5 pace for 5k (82% of 2k power). The predicted 6k time for a composite rower is 19:08.3/1:35.7 pace. The predicted 10k is 33:00.8/1:39.0 pace, and the predicted HM is 1:13:05.1/1:43.9 pace.

Okay, let's compare:

Average GB HW Olympic gold-medalist sweep rower

05k = 2k + 06.0 (factual)
06k = 2k + 07.2 (predicted)
10k = 2k + 10.5 (predicted)
HM = 2k + 15.4 (predicted)

Freed:

05k = 2k + 1.0 (ranked)
06k = 2k + 1.7 (ranked)
10k = 2k + 3.1 (ranked)
HM = 2k + 5.8 (ranked)

It may be that the man had (has?) few fast-twitch muscle fibers to start with, trained himself not to recruit any of the few he had (has?), and was (is?) almost exclusively aerobic. If this is true, lactate threshold would be more or less irrelevant to his results.

Alternatively, his 2k is horrible, and/or the ranked times are simply bogus.

[snowleopard]

Paul's Law predicts a 6:16 2K for an 8600m 30 minute piece.

Sure, for someone with balanced training and balanced abilities.

But that's just the point.

No, it isn't the point. Freed's 2K time is way way out of whack by more than 20 seconds.

A 2K is predominantly aerobic. Freed had aerobic capacity in spades. He should have been capable of 4 x 2K @ sub 1:40. At the very least he should have been good for a 6:30 regardless of how finely tuned his fitness to one extreme.

(Anyone else noticed that these numbers are spookily familiar in the current context?)

[mikvan52]

I repeat the question:

"When is ranger's first scheduled race on the water?"

("frothing" the erg is no excuse to delay scheduling is it?)



There's the same yellow streak again!

[Byron Drachman]

When will Ranger race OTW? I don't think he will ever race in a single. We will have the usual pattern. First he will not be ready, you can't rush these things, etc. and then in the fall the weather will be too harsh for racing.

I thought for the devotees of this Ranger thread and for those who missed it, I would move a few postings over from a different thread, which started to turn into another Ranger thread. It started out that John Rupp posted a link to a video of a 71-year old doing 100 ab-rolls.

This guy is strong - impressive!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTF5rFM1 ... re=related
I used to be able to do 30 of them from a standing position, and am getting inspired to do them again!

I wrote:

I agree with John. It is a good core workout. Using the ab wheel is one of the core maintenance workouts recommended at the Craftsbury website. It is more challenging if you go all the way horizontal. That last little bit, going all the way horizontal, works the shoulders nicely. My suggestion is to tighten the abs first and keep the back very slightly curved before rolling to a horizontal position, a little like doing a crunch. It especially works the abs, shoulders and triceps.
added later: Another suggestion. If you haven't done them before, start out doing a small number and then build slowly. The first time I tried it I went for 100 and got a sharp pain in the ribs part way through.

--snip--
I was interested in this gizmo so I ordered one.
Pretty disappointed.
I f you can do things like extension press ups, as I can, ab wheels are _waaay_ too easy.
I don't even feel like I am getting a workout if I do ab wheels off my knees, as Maulkin is in the video.
I think I could do hundreds of them.

My experience is that it takes about 50 off the knees to be able to do one from standing position. From there, the number done standing can quickly increase. When I could do 100 from the knees, I was able to do 30 of them from standing position. Another thing is that I usually stretch all the way out and then hold this for a few seconds each time, which can make 10 of them more difficult than doing 50 back and forth. Lifting the knees while extending helps with the transition from knees to standing position.

I asked Ranger how many pikes (ab-rolls, starting with feet and hands together, out all the way horizontal, then back to feet and hands together with legs straight the entire time)

I don't know.I'll give it a try.

Then

Sure, standing ab-wheels are harder, but not as hard as extension press ups.
I could do 50 of them, I think.
But that would be about it.
I can't do 50 extension press-ups.
25?

If you can row well, I don't think ab-wheels, from the knees or standing, do anything much for you.

Why would you want to do them, if you can row well?
Rowing well is harder on your abs, and more enjoyable, because it works the whole body, not just your abs.

Would anybody care to take a stab at translating the last two quotes from Ranger-speak to ordinary English?

[johnlvs2run]

Freed's 6k pace was 2k + 1.7. That's a long way from 2.7 -- 12 seconds better over the piece, to be exact.

It is only 1sec/500m. Plus I did the 2k many times, and the 6k only once when in top condition.
My 5k/10k differential is very close to that of Freed's, usually around 22 to 26 seconds.
My 2k to halfmarathon was slightly better, though apparently Freed only did the halfmarathon once.

I did not do Freed's program exactly. Maybe that gave him an advantage. Who knows. It's close enough.

HM = 2k + 15.4 (predicted)

That is way way way off for an endurance trained athlete.
It would have been 2:07 pace for a halfmarathon for me. I averaged 1:57.7.

Olympic rowers are invariably big, tall, heavy guys, prepared only to do well in a 2k.
They are mostly not at all capable of sustaining their speed over distance.

Another thing is that Freed might not have been tall enough or had the body mechanics to row a WR at the 2k.
But he sure had enough speed to sustain it and be much faster than any other 50+ lwt at the 5k on up.

[Byron Drachman]

--snip--
I asked Ranger how many pikes (ab-rolls, starting with feet and hands together, out all the way horizontal, then back to feet and hands together with legs straight the entire time)

I don't know.I'll give it a try.

Then

Sure, standing ab-wheels are harder, but not as hard as extension press ups.
I could do 50 of them, I think.
But that would be about it.
I can't do 50 extension press-ups.
25?

--snip--

Why would you want to do them, if you can row well?
Rowing well is harder on your abs, and more enjoyable, because it works the whole body, not just your abs.

Would anybody care to take a stab at translating the last two quotes from Ranger-speak to ordinary English?

It appears the task was harder than I thought. Ranger-speak is a confusing language requiring years of study. Part of the confusion comes from the use of so many false friends. So I will give a hint: A translation of the Ranger-speak in the last quote to ordinary English might start like this:

I actually tried to do standing ab-wheels and I am unable...