The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
snowleopard
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by snowleopard » March 17th, 2010, 2:23 pm

ranger wrote:
mikvan52 wrote:TSO thinks if he rows like Rod Freed that he'll do just fine in his single
What were Rod Freed's OTW times again, Rich??
Your bad-mouthing of Freed is just nervous laughter, Mike.

Freed outrows you by eight seconds per 500m in a HM on the erg.
Odd that you should champion Freed, wasn't he a charlatan also?

The question still stands though: what did Freed do OTW?

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NavigationHazard
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by NavigationHazard » March 17th, 2010, 2:34 pm

Actually Rod Freed seems to have rowed LW sweep at Virginia in the early 1970s. See Cavalier 3/29/72

which mentions him as having been placed in the first ever UVA LW eight. Another "Cavalier" article from the previous year suggests that he must have been rowing HW sweep prior to the introduction of the lightweight boat. I think the current incarnation of the Virginia Men's Rowing program (a club) restarted in the spring of 1967, so he must have been in one of the first couple of batches of rowers there.

He may also have rowed OTW at Long Beach for a while in the early 90s.
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by snowleopard » March 17th, 2010, 2:56 pm

NavigationHazard wrote:Actually Rod Freed seems to have rowed LW sweep at Virginia in the early 1970s. See Cavalier 3/29/72

which mentions him as having been placed in the first ever UVA LW eight. Another "Cavalier" article from the previous year suggests that he must have been rowing HW sweep prior to the introduction of the lightweight boat. I think the current incarnation of the Virginia Men's Rowing program (a club) restarted in the spring of 1967, so he must have been in one of the first couple of batches of rowers there.

He may also have rowed OTW at Long Beach for a while in the early 90s.
Hmm, not such a man of mystery after all then :|

Thanks NH.

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 17th, 2010, 3:53 pm

icepussy wrote:wasn't he a charlatan also
No, whatever his other limitations might have been, OTW and off, I think Freed probably was just good at distance rowing on the erg, a difficult accomplishment that only a charlatan wouldn't respect.

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Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 17th, 2010, 3:58 pm

icepussy wrote:Odd that you should champion Freed
Why?

Because, as a 53-year-old lightweight, he only rowed 17.2K for 60min?

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NavigationHazard
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by NavigationHazard » March 17th, 2010, 5:33 pm

The problems many people have had with Rod Freed's posted results are that some of them don't make sense in juxtaposition.

For example, his 2k PB apparently was 6:39 (1:39.7 pace). His 5k record is 16:47.0 (1:40.7 pace). It's very hard to understand how someone could row for nearly 17 minutes at a pace only 1 second/500m off his 2k best. Could Rob Waddell do it, he'd erg a 5k in 14:01.0. Rob can't -- he's roughly a minute slower. When my Oarsome teammate Dan Staite set the 30-39 LW 5k record of 16:18.4, he was around 6:16 for 2k. Dan (a national-class cyclist in Britain) was way, way longer on endurance vis-a-vis speed than (say) Waddell and as close to the anti-power monkey as I can imagine. And he was roughly 2k + 3 over 5k as opposed to Freed's 2k + 1 pace.

Freed's 6k is 20:17.0 (1:41.4). Okay, that's consistent with his posted 5k. However, his 30' is 8767 (1:42.7 pace) while his 10k is 34:16.2 (1:42.8 pace). That is, he rowed more than four more minutes during the 10k at virtually the same pace as the half-hour row? At least one of those numbers seems off, unless maybe they come from the same row.

Finally, Freed's 60' is 17132m/ 1:45.1 pace. His HM is 1:14.11.2 (1:45.5 pace). Those are 2k + 5 to 2k + 6. Most of the rowers on the planet are capable of something in the neighborhood of 5000-6000m at that pace. If nothing else, this historically has tended to create suspicion that something's not right. I think the suspicion has been reinforced by the fact that none of the performances, as far as I know, were at a public venue or race. I'm not aware that he's ever performed in an erg competition. I myself am an agnostic on the issues. The bottom line is that I don't really care one way or another, but am inclined to trust people unless they give me reason to think otherwise.

AFAIK, Most of what is 'known' about Freed as an erger comes from this Concept 2 UK Newsletter from 2000:

For this fortnight's Concept Spotlight, we thought we'd throw the net slightly wider than usual and see what foreign fish we could fetch up from the bottom of the indoor rowing depths. So putting on our Arran sweaters and waterproof trousers, we set sail on the good ship Concept Spotlight, corn pipe clenched firmly between manly teeth, the tang of brine in the air. Then we got bored of the metaphor and just checked out the On-Line World Rankings (http://www.e-row.com/ranking/home.asp) Rather than pretend that we baited our lines and hooked a particularly hefty whopper, instead we had a quick search of the best overall times in the world registered this season so far to see if there was any particular person, or fish, that stood out.

There we found Rod Freed, a 51 year old Maths professor from California, USA who's broken the 17,000 metre barrier for the hour row, a feat impressive enough to stop us throwing him back. Rod describes himself as having been "very small, weak, uncoordinated, and lacking in endurance as a child, so that I had no success at all in youth sports." When he was 16 years old, in true Charles Atlas style, he began to run and lift weights and at the University of Virginia in the late 60's and early 70's, took up rowing where he fell under the wing of Paul Wilson, a successful US sculler. "He insisted that we do all workouts at a race pace ('you'll perform like you practice, and "long-slow distance" teaches you to go slow')."

A serious back injury put temporary pay to his on-water rowing in the early 1980's, but a chance introduction to an Indoor Rower three years ago means that he might be back on the water soon.

"I think that I'll always be better on the rowing machine than on the water due to my lack of coordination. However, interestingly enough, I think that the Indoor Rower has improved my technique. By watching the monitor, I've learned that what feels harder doesn't necessarily make me go faster. Examples abound: (1) a quick catch feels "easier" than a big "weightlifting-type" slug at the catch, but the quick catch lets me go faster; (2) keeping my hands lower at the catch and during the drive lets me go faster; etc.).

"Through indoor rowing I've also learned that I seem to have some sort of comparative advantage in the longer pieces. This is a relief to me: at the Long Beach Rowing Assoc., we did lots of 500 metre pieces in practice, and I always performed poorly, despite achieving high heart rates (in fact, my best 500 wasn't much faster than 1/4 of my best 2,000m). Despite the high heart rates, I thought that perhaps I just didn't have enough character to push hard enough on the shorter pieces. Now I've learned that I just have no "top end" (although I'm working on it). My best 2,000m is 6:39, and my best 500 is 1:32."

So what sort of training routine does a mathematics professor at California State University follow then? A pretty intensive one it seems: "I do three different workouts (along with weightlifting: leg press, clean, leg extension, leg curl, calf raise, pull ups, seated rowing, upright rowing, dips, lateral raises, and sit-ups). Some people like more variety to stay fresh, but I like to stick to these three workouts, so that I can compare times, and thus motivate myself to (try to) improve. I've borrowed extensively from what US swimmers do, from the book Interval Training by Mathews and Fox, and from Paul Wilson (e.g., I still try to do everything at a race pace). Heart rates are quite high after each piece (186-192 beats per minute at 30 seconds, back down to 144-156 bpm at 1 minute: resting heart rate 60-65 bpm). These workouts evolve over time as I learn more, but right now they are as follows:

Monday and Thursday ------------------------------- 5-6 minute warm up - light paddle building to full speed 30 minutes - - distance averages between 8580 and 8650 metres Seven minute rest 25 minutes - - distance averages between 7125 and 7175

Tuesday and Friday ------------------------------- 5-6 minute warm up 6000 meters - - times average between 20:35 and 20:55 Seven minute rest 6000 meters - - times average between 20:50 and 21:10 Seven minute rest 4 x 600 meters on, 1 minute off Four minute rest 4 x 30 seconds on, 1 minute off (to try to build some kind of speed)

Wednesday and Saturday ----------------------------------- 5-6 minute warm up 5 x 4 minutes on, 1.5 minutes off Seven minute rest 5 x 4 minutes on, 1.5 minutes off Seven minute rest 5 x 1 minute on, 30 seconds off Four minute rest 4 x 30 seconds on, 1 minute off

Sunday ------------------------------- 3-5 minute warm up 40 minutes on recumbent stationary bike (trying to go as far as possible)

Rod's work-out is obviously a pretty intensive one, training as he does seven days a week. We showed his training plan to Terry O'Neill to see what he thought of it. "Reading Rod's workouts I can see why he doesn't have a very good top end performance. The sessions are pretty straightforward but we don't know what else in terms of the weight programme mentioned are included on these days. I would suggest that there is so much training going on that the body treats it all as sub-maximal and this is why his 500m split is relatively poor and that he is better at the longer pieces.

Rowing 2000m flat out does require a sound aerobic platform but at the end of the day it will only take 6-8mins for most people. This makes it a power endurance sport and if too much emphasis is placed on the endurance and not enough on the power, then the 2000m time will suffer. Research has shown that when trying to combine power and endurance training in the same session, the power training does not have a negative effect on the endurance training but the endurance training does have a neutralising effect on the power training. Rod's training programme is varied and challenging and the sort of programme that Trans-Atlantic rowers should look at because it is so demanding. As for improving your 2,000 metre time, however, no chance."
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by JohnBove » March 17th, 2010, 5:39 pm

ranger wrote: For instance, at the moment, my 93-year old mother is dying of congestive heart failure and probably won't live to the weekend.

Her breathing is down to 50% of capacity; they have her on morphine; she is no longer responsive.

I need to compose something to say at her funeral service.

Great lady.

There is a lot to say.

I think I will say a few things and then read this, which has always reminded me of her:

Never Again Would Birds' Song Be the Same

He would declare and could himself believe
That the birds there in all the garden round
From having heard the daylong voice of Eve
Had added to their own an oversound,
Her tone of meaning but without the words.
Admittedly an eloquence so soft
Could only have had an influence on birds
When call or laughter carried it aloft.
Be that as may be, she was in their song.
Moreover her voice upon their voices crossed
Had now persisted in the woods so long
That probably it never would be lost.
Never again would birds' song be the same.
And to do that to birds was why she came.

--Robert Frost


ranger
What a lovely son. How nice you could find a little -- well, a very little -- time to stop talking about yourself and let us know of the obviously heart-rending experience you're going through and that you, well, noticed that your mother is dying. It made no dent in your level of correspondence here, but we all grieve in our own way, I suppose. Gasbagging about oneself is as good a way as any.
\

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johnlvs2run
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by johnlvs2run » March 17th, 2010, 6:30 pm

ranger wrote:at the moment, my 93-year old mother is dying of congestive heart failure and probably won't live to the weekend.

Her breathing is down to 50% of capacity; they have her on morphine; she is no longer responsive.

I need to compose something to say at her funeral service.

Great lady.
Rich,

Sorry about your Mom.

Mine is hanging in there at 90. I am more and more impressed with how tough she is.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

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mikvan52
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by mikvan52 » March 17th, 2010, 6:39 pm

ranger wrote:
mikvan52 wrote:TSO thinks if he rows like Rod Freed that he'll do just fine in his single
What were Rod Freed's OTW times again, Rich??
Your bad-mouthing of Freed is just nervous laughter, Mike.

Freed outrows you by eight seconds per 500m in a HM on the erg.

Why?

You don't get anywhere by disrespecting standards, Mike.

You just avoid the issue.

Parading your strengths will not make you better.

It is just rear-guard action.

You only get better by working on your weaknesses.

Watch your back, son.

ranger
Everyone has weaknesses Rich.
Those who admit it express a respect for reality, wouldn't you agree?

I'm just razzing you... Freed is of no interest for me... He never rowed OTW as a master AFAIK. He never rowed Crash-B... almost like you :P and now he's disappeared as you will shortly in your quest to make a stab at OTW racing.

Sorry about the ordeal with your mother. I retract any razzing for now (edit)
I hope I reflect the general feeling of the "naysayers" in that I wish you and your family well in this time of challenge and finality to years of love.

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johnlvs2run
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by johnlvs2run » March 17th, 2010, 6:59 pm

NavigationHazard wrote:Freed's 60' is 17132m/ 1:45.1 pace. His HM is 1:14.11.2 (1:45.5 pace). Those are 2k + 5 to 2k + 6. Most of the rowers on the planet are capable of something in the neighborhood of 5000-6000m at that pace. If nothing else, this historically has tended to create suspicion that something's not right.
My halfmarathon PB was at 2k + 6.2, actually a lower percentage (105.67) than Freed's (105.8), primarily by adhering to my own version of his program.

By my own results I am convinced of the feasibility of his times.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

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johnlvs2run
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by johnlvs2run » March 17th, 2010, 7:05 pm

mikvan52 wrote:Freed ... blah blah
I think Freed used to row similarly on the water to his erg distances and results.

There was no competition for him, certainly not in Boston.

Still, many years later, no one has remotely approached his times.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

ranger
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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 17th, 2010, 7:10 pm

NavigationHazard wrote:Research has shown that when trying to combine power and endurance training in the same session, the power training does not have a negative effect on the endurance training but the endurance training does have a neutralising effect on the power training.
I agree entirely.

That's why I have spent seven years learning to be effective (doing power training) and only a year (so far) trying to be efficient (doing endurance training).

I suspect that Freed could not do 500r30 @ 1:30 or 1Kr24 @ 1:38--16 SPI.

He just pulled 10 SPI, again and again, like a freight train rolling down the tract.

He could do it for a couple of hours, pushing the rate, pushing the rate.

But this sort of maximal efficiency alone doesn't help you much at all in a 2K, if you can't be maximally effective, too.

Even at 35 spm, 10 SPI is just 1:40 pace.

And that's all she wrote.

If you can pull 12 SPI, 35 spm is 1:34 pace.

Different world.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on March 17th, 2010, 7:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 17th, 2010, 7:11 pm

John Rupp wrote:
mikvan52 wrote:Freed ... blah blah
I think Freed used to row similarly on the water to his erg distances and results.

There was no competition for him, certainly not in Boston.

Still, many years later, no one has remotely approached his times.
Well...

The time has come.

I think I will now beat all of Freed's best distance times, even though I am five years older.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 17th, 2010, 7:14 pm

mikvan52 wrote:Freed is of no interest for me
Indeed.

And so it goes.

Avoid your weaknesses at your peril.

Good luck with it.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Re: The Two Types of Training

Post by ranger » March 17th, 2010, 7:20 pm

mikvan52 wrote:I hope I reflect the general feeling of the "naysayers" in that I wish you and your family well in this time of challenge and finality to years of love.
Thanks, Mike.

It's really no "challenge" at all.

It is just a celebration, but a serious one.

A long life, well lived, in need of recognition.

We need to raise our voices--and praise her.

That won't be hard at all.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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