muscle involved : rowing vs skiing

[macroth]

In my world, his hips aren't staying level at all, but I've come to accept that you and I don't live in the same world.

His arm motion isn't too bad, but keeps getting shorter and shorter. As a rower, he probably isn't used to using his triceps.

His power output per weight is probably decent. That and a euro will get him a soda.

[johnlvs2run]

Yeah the kid on the left isn't going up and down at all.

In my world, his hips aren't staying level at all, but I've come to accept that you and I don't live in the same world.

Make up your mind.

Note that his torso is rotating downward and back up, due to the rotation at the hips.
Paola is rotating to a lesser degree.

Many of the others are keeping their torsos straight while bobbling their hips up and down.

The c2 500m video is a good example of this. Peter is using the squat style, and Greg is rotating at the hips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLmFLzYk ... re=related

[macroth]

Make up your mind.

I'll let you ponder the meaning of this:


Remind me again why we're examining the questionable technique of non-skiers with little experience on this machine? What exactly are we trying to determine?

[erc]

This thread seems to have drifted somewhat,the words trees and wood come to mind.If we are considering technique none of the erger's used as examples bear any relationship to Nordic skiing,they would either be going backwards or just up and down. So I feel we are looking and two totally different concepts here,if we ignore general getting fit where pretty well any style will do,1,training for true skiing which does require application of true technique or skierg competition where I suspect the straight up and down method would produce the fastest time/distance.Comment from some of the fast boys/girls would be welcome.

[johnlvs2run]

If we are considering technique none of the erger's used as examples bear any relationship to Nordic skiing,they would either be going backwards or just up and down.

Based on that, perhaps using a skierg is not good training for cross country skiing.

So I feel we are looking and two totally different concepts here,if we ignore general getting fit where pretty well any style will do 1,training for true skiing which does require application of true technique

The skierg is definitely a means of training for fitness, as are running, using an ab wheel, and many other things, none of which have the high cost of a skierg.

or skierg competition where I suspect the straight up and down method would produce the fastest time/distance.

Every person has to push their own weight in xc skiing, but on the skierg the weight pushed is the same, regardless of weight.
Thus a heavy out of shape person is going to do much better on a skierg than a lighter very fit athlete, which makes the skierg not suitable for competitions or the rankings.

Competition would be THE reason that I would get a skierg, but C2 has made the decision to not even have a lightweight division in the rankings.

[Nosmo]

Based on that, perhaps using a skierg is not good training for cross country skiing.

The same could be said for the rowing erg.

Competition would be THE reason that I would get a skierg, but C2 has made the decision to not even have a lightweight division in the rankings.

Doesn't make much sense until enough people use them to have a significant number of people in each division.

[erc]

Hello John,I suggest you re-read my notes,there was no criticism of the skierg,a superb piece of equiptment,merely the technique or lack of.Any machine or tool can be used correctly or misused.It all depends on what one wants out of it.(Or are you being deliberately obtuse?)[/quote]

[ThatMoos3Guy]

I haven't gotten the chance to use one yet, but I imagine the skierg is a great way to crosstrain for nordic skiing. It looks like it does a great job of working on all the upper body musculature used during a classic race, and some lower body as well. No, the motion is not quite identical to double poling on skis, but can't the same be said of erging? There might be some short cuts to get better time on the skierg, but if the purpose of using it is to get faster at nordic skiing then the smart athlete won't do that.

As for weight division, most cross country skiers are not gigantic guys. I wonder how they do compared to larger folks.

[MikeXCSkier]

I think the form would be more true to XC skiing if the user would stand farther away from the machine. This would create a motion truer to the angle of a real pole plant as opposed to the near vertical poling we're seeing in the videos. Classic skiers would need to stand even further away since the poles used in that technique are shorter. This would perhaps require modifying the skierg to add a longer base. Standing farther away would also help solve the problem of squatting up and down. The near-vertical poling action encourages such a squatting movement. Standing farther away would encourage the proper torso "crunch" action used in poling. Some users might still be tempted to squat, but they would soon find that this is tiring and inefficient. Finally, I would suggest to Concept2 to offer the option of the glove-type straps that are used on skate skiing poles. This would be a nice touch.

I currently don't own a Skierg. I use the poor man's version of elastic tubing anchored to a wall.

[Rockin Roland]

It's disappointing to learn that just like on the rowing erg, gym junkies with no technical attributes, are producing good times on the Skierg with poor XC skiing technique. It makes it pointless for rowers, who have great technique to move a boat, and XC skiers who are very slick on skis, to compare their times against these idiots. It's probably better that these people continue to hide in gymnasiums so that we don't have to look at their aweful technique out on the snow or water.

There is a very popular saying amoungst compet/tive rowers " Ergs don't float". Soon there will be another with the skiers; "Skiergs don't glide".

[gouldilocks]

It's disappointing to learn that just like on the rowing erg, gym junkies with no technical attributes, are producing good times on the Skierg with poor XC skiing technique. It makes it pointless for rowers, who have great technique to move a boat, and XC skiers who are very slick on skis, to compare their times against these idiots. It's probably better that these people continue to hide in gymnasiums so that we don't have to look at their aweful technique out on the snow or water.

There is a very popular saying amoungst compet/tive rowers " Ergs don't float". Soon there will be another with the skiers; "Skiergs don't glide".

A suggestion for you:
Next time you are in a gym go up to the 130kg hulk on the erg, tell him what an "idiot" he is and how he offends your sense of aesthetics - when you are getting your jaw wired you can ask if they'll remove the chip on your shoulder.
Maybe then you will stay out of the gym, back on the water, where you belong!!

Paul G

[Rockin Roland]

A suggestion for you:
Next time you are in a gym go up to the 130kg hulk on the erg, tell him what an "idiot" he is and how he offends your sense of aesthetics - when you are getting your jaw wired you can ask if they'll remove the chip on your shoulder.
Maybe then you will stay out of the gym, back on the water, where you belong!!

Paul G

That's fine. I doubt if the 130kg hulk would be able to run fast enough to catch me. And if he chased me outside he'd be blinded by the sun's natural light anyway.

[hjs]

It's disappointing to learn that just like on the rowing erg, gym junkies with no technical attributes, are producing good times on the Skierg with poor XC skiing technique. It makes it pointless for rowers, who have great technique to move a boat, and XC skiers who are very slick on skis, to compare their times against these idiots. It's probably better that these people continue to hide in gymnasiums so that we don't have to look at their aweful technique out on the snow or water.

There is a very popular saying amoungst compet/tive rowers " Ergs don't float". Soon there will be another with the skiers; "Skiergs don't glide".

Why are you making such a fuss, a machine is an machine, an boat is a boat and skiing is skiing. Those things are not alike, so you also don,t need the same technique.

[hjs]

A suggestion for you:
Next time you are in a gym go up to the 130kg hulk on the erg, tell him what an "idiot" he is and how he offends your sense of aesthetics - when you are getting your jaw wired you can ask if they'll remove the chip on your shoulder.
Maybe then you will stay out of the gym, back on the water, where you belong!!

Paul G

That's fine. I doubt if the 130kg hulk would be able to run fast enough to catch me. And if he chased me outside he'd be blinded by the sun's natural light anyway.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJImRx3r ... ature=fvwp

this one will

[carlb]

I currently practice skiing with the skierg, and would like know if it really involve the abs compared to rowing. In fact i would like to know which muscle groups are involved if i practice the skierg with the same movement that the one show in the video of concept2.

This BioRow analysis http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2010_files ... News12.pdf gives a general comparison of SkiErg or Rowing saying it mirrors it nicely.

This article XC Double Poling goes into great detail on muscles: Biomechanical Analysis of Double Poling in Elite Cross-Country Skiers
http://www.ussa.org/magnoliaPublic/dms/ ... Skiers.pdf

Study is for real XC skiers in motion and leaning forward, on the Skierg you are still and upright so not exactly same.

See "muscle sequencing" on page 816. Here are some excerpts on key muscles, there's a lot more in the article. Things vary a little based on wide or narrow elbows.

"muscle activation chain" consisting of three important links of muscles.
These were, in sequential order:
1) trunk flexors rectus abdominis and obliquus externus and the hip flexor rectus femoris;
2) shoulder extensors latissimus dorsi, teres major, and pectoralis major; and
3) the shoulder and elbow extensor triceps brachii.

All these muscles showed high EMG activation levels during the first part of PP (pole plant), contributing to the development of pole force. Thereafter, they switched off according to a "first in-first out" pattern, starting with the abdominal muscles around the occurrence of the minimum hip angle, simultaneously with PPF, followed by the shoulder muscles and triceps brachii during the very last part of PP.

Skiers using the faster strategy A in particular demonstrated a more distinct pattern using their trunk and hip flexors, resulting in the hip-angle characteristics described above.

Among the shoulder extensors, TMa, LD, and PMa showed High to Medium activation levels.
PMa has a double function with extension of the shoulder joint in the first part of PP, and a stabilizing function as antagonist to LD.
TMa appears to act as an important shoulder extensor (high-high pattern) together with LD (high-medium pattern).

The forearm muscle flexor carpi ulnaris (FCU) demonstrated a very characteristic activation pattern with a short and high activation during the final pushoff.

Muscles analyzed:
pectoralis major (PMa), latissimus dorsi (LD), teres major (TMa), rectus abdominis (RA), obliquus externus abdominis (OBLe), erector spinae (ES-L4), triceps brachii (caput longum) (TRI), biceps brachii (BIC), flexor carpiulnaris (FCU), gluteus maximus (GMa), tensor fasciae latae (TFL), rectus femoris (RF), vastus medialis (VM), vastus lateralis (VL), biceps femoris (caput longum) (BF), gastrocnemius (caput laterale) (GAS), soleus (SOL), tibialis anterior (TA), and peroneus longus (PL)