The Two Types of Training

[snowleopard]

IF accurately reported, our hero's workouts are far too intense, there is inadequate rest, and there is far too much emphasis on high HR work when the research indicates a large volume of relatively low intensity training delivers far better results.

Here is an interesting source giving some details on what Leadville said:

From http://home.hia.no/~stephens/interval.htm

Ok, you are one of these guys that likes to get in your boat or on your rowing machine every workout and hammer away for 500 to 2000 meters, then stop in the onrushing storm of lactic acid agony, only to repeat the process several more times after a few minutes rest. The workout leaves you exhausted, dry mouthed, and wobbly legged. Surely it will make you faster. You say, "Why bother training at less than race speed? If you want to race fast, you must train fast, always". Runners, Cyclists, swimmers, the same mentality can be found among you. Coming from a more speed and power oriented mentality, this was also my training inclination, for several years when I entered into endurance training. Heck, I was just making my interval trained rats do my workout! But, after reaching a plateau pretty quickly, I started looking, experimenting, and learning.

The German Rowers ease off the throttle

A few years ago, I came across extensive data collected on German national team rowers by their team of physiologists. They were regulary evaluated with blood tests during and after workouts. After accumulating a lot of measurements over a training year, some interesting results were reported. Eighty percent of the training volume among elite German rowers was performed at a lactate concentration under 2.0 mM!( a value at or only slightly above resting levels) Only one or two percent of the training volume was at "RACE PACE". (Remember in competitive rowing, the events last 5.5 to 8 minutes, so race pace is above VO2 max.) From what I knew of their training back in the 50s and 60s, I had assumed that the Germans (and the Soviets) trained at brutal intensities, and those who didn't survive were replaced. Had the Germans become wimps? Well, actually at the exact time of these tests in the late 80s , they were the dominant world power in rowing with multiple world champions ranging across the boat class spectrum. So, whatever they were doing was working.

Why?

But, our hero aside, that's a slightly mixed message. The [east] Germans and Soviets trained at prodigious volume with low intensity.

Low intensity and low volume is not a recipe for success. If you don't have time for long duration low intensity workouts you must perforce resort to higher intensity lower volume workouts (UT1).

[ranger]

Not sure what you folks are referencing.

My recent distance rowing and sharpening?

Sure, these are intense.

But since 2003, I have only been doing distance work for the last six months.

And I have only been sharpening for a couple of weeks.

Before that, after I broke the WR three times in 2003, I rowed at low rates for six years, working on technique.

During this time, my emphasis was on effectiveness, much of which is skeletal-muscular and technical, not aerobic at all.

If it turns out that I indeed pull 6:16, this work on technique and stroking power will have been worth about six seconds per 500m, competitively.

Over the seven years that I did my foundational training, my competition, who trained intensely, slowed down three seconds per 500m.

If I row 6:16, I will have changed just as much, but for the better rather than for the worse.

In 2003, I was already the best by a couple of seconds per 500m.

So, together with the additional six seconds per 500m I might gain from my work on technique and stroking power, the gap now becomes 8 seconds per 500m, over 30 seconds.

Historically, the best 60s lwt row at WIRC has been 6:50.8.

6:16 bests that by 33.2 seconds, just over 8 seconds per 500m.

ranger

[ranger]

Again, in trying to characterize me, you characterize yourselves, and miss what I have done, and am doing, entirely.

You folks are daft.

ranger

[ranger]

Should he hang-out long enough to try his hand in a 1x:
It would be a riot to watch him try to beat Rick Anderson in the open "F" 1x (60-64 yr men)... or in the lightweights who are just as fast.

Of course I'll race my 1x if I go to Nationals.

Why not?

It's easy to put a clock on yourself and know exactly how fast you are.

No speculation needed.

This OTW season, I will do a lot of 1K pieces and keep you up to date on how I am doing.

If I pull 6:16 on the erg this winter/spring, I will be 20 seconds faster than Spousta on the erg, even though I am 30 lbs. lighter.

Spousta weighs about 195 lbs.

Mike.

I won't be 60 this summer, though.

I will be 59.

So we will race head to head.

We are in the same age and weight category.

Yep.

That should be a "riot."

If we are not in a double, I might have the fitness to rate 38 spm in a 1K rather than 28 spm.

It would be interesting to see how that would go.

Even the best heavyweights rate 38 spm, and not just in a 1K--in a 2K.

You hold about a 20 second per 500m ratio between your erging and your OTW rowing.

I think I will be right about there this year, too.

If so, that means that I might be able to get to about 1:51 pace for 1K, if I can rate high.

ranger

[leadville]

If you are actually dumb enough to do intervals a day or two before a race, your fate is sealed

What the hell is wrong with that? I have done that sort of thing several times with good results. In an OTW regatta, a competitor might have to do 2-3 heats over a period of 1-2 days. In fact, at the master's nationals, many rowers sign up for several races - as many as 8. Even the C-Bs used to have heats a number of years ago. I remember having to do two races in two days.

This year I did a 5K time trial two days before the C-B race and got a best going back a couple of seasons. It gave me no trouble on competition day.

Bob
"what in the hell is wrong with that" relates to the volume and intensity of work ranger claims he is doing combined with the longer recovery times required as we age. It is possible to do multiple 500s one day and race the next but not advisable as the tissue damage takes more than 24 hours to heal. All the evidence indicates a long taper is highly beneficial and can increase performance by as much as 1%~3%. That's considerable.

I'm sure you can cite specific examples of solid performance and I don't doubt your statements. However it is likely that your performance would have been even better without the penultimate workout.

In re recovery, the evidence suggests but is not conclusive that older athletes require more recovery time.

Specific to our hero, he is training WAY too intensely WAY too often and thus is now severely at risk for chronic overtraining. That assumes he's actually doing what he says he is, a highly shaky assumption to be sure. As a result, Bob, ranger is much more likely to crater than pull a sub 6:50 2k.

Byron's citation quotes Seiler, who has produced some of the most respected analysis of the issue of training volume and intensity and the relation of same to performance. Very briefly, high volumes of low intensity (<75%mHR, 80% of hours) coupled with modest amounts of higher intensity intervals appears to produce optimal results for 2k elite rowers.

There's a lot more to it and I'd encourage anyone interested to read Seiler's work.



On another occasion, at a satellite regatta, I did a 30' time trial about an hour and a half after the 2K race and came up with a post-op PB. It may have been dumb in your estimation, but it worked for me.

Bob S.

[ranger]

Specific to our hero, he is training WAY too intensely WAY too often and thus is now severely at risk for chronic overtraining.

I have been training for 50 years.

I have never overtrained.

As Mike Spracklin likes to say, if you know what you are doing, it is impossible to train too much.

The more, the merrier.

If you are ever unusually tired in a session, you just quit, and walk away.

That solves the problem of overtraining.

ranger

[Steve G]

Should he hang-out long enough to try his hand in a 1x:
It would be a riot to watch him try to beat Rick Anderson in the open "F" 1x (60-64 yr men)... or in the lightweights who are just as fast.

I won't be 60 this summer, though.

I will be 59.

So we will race head to head.

We are in the same age and weight category.

Yep.

SNIP

ranger

Rich
A week back you said you will be 60 in a few days time, make your effin mind up!!
Repeat after me, I am not 60 for a looooong time
Steve

[Bob S.]

If you are actually dumb enough to do intervals a day or two before a race, your fate is sealed

This year I did a 5K time trial two days before the C-B race and got a best going back a couple of seasons. It gave me no trouble on competition day.

Bob
It is possible to do multiple 500s one day and race the next but not advisable as the tissue damage takes more than 24 hours to heal. All the evidence indicates a long taper is highly beneficial and can increase performance by as much as 1%~3%. That's considerable.

I fully agree on the next day issue, but your initial post stated 1-2 days before a race. I am convinced, that, even at 85, a full day of rest in between is enough recovery time.

In re recovery, the evidence suggests but is not conclusive that older athletes require more recovery time.

I became fully convinced of this over thirty years ago, based on my own experience. It applies not only to athletic activities but to many other things, including overindulgence and illness.

On another occasion, at a satellite regatta, I did a 30' time trial about an hour and a half after the 2K race and came up with a post-op PB. It may have been dumb in your estimation, but it worked for me.

I brought that up to show that even an hour and a half is enough time to make quite a bit of recovery. The 2K that day was the major event, of course, and I did well in it, beating the long standing WR (my time for that race did not make it into the books, because it was beaten 3 weeks later by Osborne). I did the 30' because it was one last chance to do a ranked piece at sea level where I could make a much better time than I could ever do at home. I have no doubt but that I would have done considerably better if I could have waited another day or two to do it, but I was heading back home to the high desert the next day and it was my only chance.

Bob S.

[TomR]

My stroke is now perfected.

I expect to have sex with Penelope Cruz any day now.

That would be an easy AT session.

Neither hjs nor Byron know how elegant my stroke is.

Mike VB has a weak stroke. Obviously Penelope prefers to sharpen with me.

With my perfect stroke, my heart rate will remain almost flat while Penelope and I do the horizontal 2k.

In principal, hjs will owe me $1000 US.

[leadville]

Bob

there is no hard and fast rule re recovery as there can be significant variation. However there is ample evidence that hard interval training of the type described by our hero is stressful and will likely take at least two days to recover fully. Some individuals may heal more quickly, for that is what happens after training. But most will take 1-2 days and some more. Recall I noted this is after our hero's training overload. Although he said he was 'sharpening' six weeks ago and just said he's starting now; so...

Intervals, done correctly, should be very stressful if they are to evoke the desired adaptation. Our hero descibes a difficult course of intervals which I believe will have a serious negative effect on his racing performance two days later.

[JohnBove]

Bob

there is no hard and fast rule re recovery as there can be significant variation. However there is ample evidence that hard interval training of the type described by our hero is stressful and will likely take at least two days to recover fully. Some individuals may heal more quickly, for that is what happens after training. But most will take 1-2 days and some more. Recall I noted this is after our hero's training overload. Although he said he was 'sharpening' six weeks ago and just said he's starting now; so...

Intervals, done correctly, should be very stressful if they are to evoke the desired adaptation. Our hero descibes a difficult course of intervals which I believe will have a serious negative effect on his racing performance two days later.

You guys debate as though what you're debating about is reliably truthful, which it is not. There's no reason to believe any of this is true. He won't do the trials and he likely won't show for the race.

[aharmer]

Rich, I didn't see the 8x500 screenshot today so just wondering what time you expect to post it tomorrow? I'm honestly excited to see and hope you post it. If I remember correctly you predict 8x500, 3:30r as 2k-2 or 3 right?

[ranger]

Should he hang-out long enough to try his hand in a 1x:
It would be a riot to watch him try to beat Rick Anderson in the open "F" 1x (60-64 yr men)... or in the lightweights who are just as fast.

I won't be 60 this summer, though.

I will be 59.

So we will race head to head.

We are in the same age and weight category.

Yep.

SNIP

ranger

Rich
A week back you said you will be 60 in a few days time, make your effin mind up!!
Repeat after me, I am not 60 for a looooong time
Steve

Yep.

I'll be 60 in few days.

341 and counting.

ranger

[ranger]

Rich, I didn't see the 8x500 screenshot today so just wondering what time you expect to post it tomorrow? I'm honestly excited to see and hope you post it. If I remember correctly you predict 8x500, 3:30r as 2k-2 or 3 right?

I do 8 x 500m (3:30 rest) at 2K - 3.

My pb for the session is right around 1:34.

My 2K pb is right around 1:37.

This year, I want to try to get to 20 x 500m at 1:34.

Back in 2002-2003, I got to 20 x 500m @ 1:37.

20 x 500m is done at 2K.

Race pace 500s.

ranger

[ranger]

Intervals, done correctly, should be very stressful if they are to evoke the desired adaptation. Our hero descibes a difficult course of intervals which I believe will have a serious negative effect on his racing performance two days later.

Sure, you want to taper for several days if you are aiming for your best time of the year, for instance, in a big event, one that you are peaking for.

But I am just bringing up my heart rate, not aiming for my best time of the year.

So at this point, I gain more for racing by working hard at pushing my heart rate up to max in my training rather than tapering.

When I am aiming for my best time of the year, I will indeed taper; but then, I will row it at 1:34, not 1:38.

I am just doing AT training right now, my HR is not even up to max.

When you are fully trained up for it, your HR get _very_ high in a 2K by about 1200m.

Then you hang on until 1700m.

Then you kick as hard as you can, turn blue, and fall on your face at the finish line, when the meter clock reads 0, and you are done.

I am in nowhere near that kind of anaerobic shape yet, but I am getting there.

As I mentioned, I am now riding my HR up into the middle 170s, and even in my distance rowing, I am keeping it above 160 bpm.

Hopefully, before Sunday, I can see a HR in the 180s.

185 bpm would be nice.

My maxHR is 190 bpm.

Once you get your HR up to max, then you can keep pushing the pace of your 500s so that you go pretty close to that max earlier and earler.

When I do this, I will be going 1:31, not 1:34.

Then, if you do 1Ks, instead of just 500s, you get your heart used to holding steady at that max for extended periods.

Then, in final sharpening, you want to do some 1500s and 2Ks where you are simulating the full race, that is, with your heart rate near max as long as you can tolerate it.

The standard here is a 2K with negative splitting: 1K @ 2K + 2, 500m @ 2K + 1, then all out to the end.

If my target is 1:34, this would be 1:36, 1:36, 1:35, max.

So by that point, I need to be _very_ comfortable with getting to 1500 at about 1:35 pace.

Sessions like 4 x 1K @ 1:34 (race pace 1Ks) will help with this.

ranger