The Two Types of Training

[detlefchef]

Okay, I'll stop expecting screenshots. My fault for being so gullible.

Just saw your previous post. Yes, you tell us all what you're doing. That's why we request screenshots, because all you do is tell us and never show us. All of your training is bullshit and doesn't really happen. It would be really easy to prove me a fool by showing a single session. How about going back into the memory and pulling up that hour or two where you average WR 2k pace? All you have to do is snap a photo and post it. You promise to do it all the time.

What do you do for 60min @ 10 MPS?

How do you train?

ranger

What the hell difference does it make what he does? He's not the one constantly making fantastic predictions and then substantiating those predictions with still more predictions. Then, when called out as full of crap, denies it by making... wait for it... more freaking predictions! And smugly so, I might add. Calling us all naysayers and idiots, if I recall, because we dared to doubt you.

OK, so the last prediction you made that was supposed to prove that you're not totally and completely full of crap was that yesterday you were going to roll a 6:40. Still a full 12 seconds slower than what you were claiming you had in you, mind you. And that's a big freaking 12 seconds, btw. But, none the less, it would be a start. Of course, when time came for you to put all us naysayers and idiots in our place? Nothing. Nothing but more vague metrics explaining why you're ready to pop off a 6:30. That and more predictions of what you're going to do.

See, this thread is not about anyone but you. This thread is about you saying you're going to do all these great things and us saying that we'll believe it when we see it. And, well, because you're not actually showing us anything...

What's really the shame of it all? Assuming that you did roll a 6:48, that's a really, really great time for a guy pushing 60. Hell, that's a nice time for pretty much any age group. It's faster than I've ever gone and you've got nearly 20 years on me. If you weren't such an a-hole and so full of it, everyone would be giving you mad props for going that fast instead of laughing at you for going so much slower than you claim you can go.

[mikvan52]

What's really the shame of it all? Assuming that (ranger) did roll a 6:48, that's a really, really great time for a guy pushing 60. Hell, that's a nice time for pretty much any age group. It's faster than I've ever gone and you've got nearly 20 years on me. If you weren't ... so full of it, everyone would be giving you mad props for going that fast instead of laughing at you for going so much slower than you claim you can go.

It is a shame. I agree with you detlefchef..

It's so odd too that he didn't get to CRASH-Bs once for his entire 55-59 age group cycle...

His choice entirely.

Commitment's a bitch!

It would be interesting to witness a ranger 2k attempt where he started out at 1:39.4 pace (WR pace) and see how many minutes he lasted....

Someone who has a 6:28 potential would be able to get at least 2k easily without all the (i need the) HR~ & "hard sharpening" smoke screen.

Personally: I've maxed out in the high 6:4x's so far this season yet I can do 2 x 2k/ 8' rest at 7:00.

Rich has averaged 6:58.x for single 2k efforts... very puzzling....

[ranger]

t would be interesting to witness a ranger 2k attempt where he started out at 1:39.4 pace (WR pace) and see how many minutes he lasted....

Someone who has a 6:28 potential would be able to get at least 2k easily without all the (i need the) HR~ & "hard sharpening" smoke screen.

Personally: I've maxed out in the high 6:4x's so far this season yet I can do 2 x 2k/ 8' rest at 7:00.

Rich has averaged 6:58.x for single 2k efforts... very puzzling....

This isn't brain science, Mike.

You build a big UT base; that is what makes it possible to sharpen at a high level and then race at a high level.

But you can't do the fast racing without the sharpening.

Your anaerobic capacities are 20% of your 2K performance.

About 8 seconds per 500m, the difference between a 1:42 2K and a 1:34 2K.

It doesn't take long to bring up your anaerobic capacities, though.

A few weeks.

Mine are now coming up quickly.

I should see my max HR before Sunday.

I am now doing a couple of hours of work each day with my HR over 160 bpm.

I am not doing any other kind of work.

My 2K times should start coming down precipitously.

I am not capable of just 6:28.

I am capable of 6:16.

I think I will pull 6:28 on Sunday.

Today or tomorrow, I will do 8 x 500m (3:30 rest), 1:34 @ 36 spm, and post the screenshot.

That prediicts a 6:28 2K.

With two more weeks of sharpening, I think I will pull 6:16 in Detroit on March 6th.

ranger

[Byron Drachman]

It is a shame. I agree with you detlefchef..

It is also a shame that he will not learn to scull with good technique. I am sure he would be fast. A couple of years ago we had an unusually pleasant exchange of postings when he announced he would be racing on the water that year. Since he would not take any lessons, I suggested a couple of standard drills such as square blade rowing to help with his sculling. He took that as a personal attack and switched to his more usual venomous style: He does not need to do drills because he takes perfect strokes on the water, what is my 2k time?, who am I to be giving him instructions, etc.

Cue for Ranger: "I will win the HOCR when I turn 60, yakity, yakity"

[leadville]

-snip-
ranger -

I think I will pull 6:28 on Sunday.

Today or tomorrow, I will do 8 x 500m (3:30 rest), 1:34 @ 36 spm, and post the screenshot.

That prediicts a 6:28 2K.

With two more weeks of sharpening, I think I will pull 6:16 in Detroit on March 6th.

-snip-

No, you won't. This weekend you'll either a) DNS; b) not make weight; or c) pull around a 7:00. Furthermore, you'll never post the screenshot.

If you are actually dumb enough to do intervals a day or two before a race, your fate is sealed, and IF you show up and IF you make weight and IF you complete 2k you'll be well over seven minutes.

And ranger, unlike you, I don't THINK it, I KNOW it.

[whp4]

Cue for Ranger: "I will win the HOCR when I turn 60, yakity, yakity"

Good news, though -- that's going to be in just a few days

Be interesting to see if he's any better at travel planning when he's 60.

[whp4]

I think ranger will be a natural at the OTW stuff, though. Think of all the possible new excuses he'll have to choose from for not competing!

Trailer got a flat
Trailer hitch fell off
Couldn't get the brake lights to work
Underpass was too low to drive under with shell on roof rack
Oars fell on thumb
Couldn't figure out which end of the shell is the bow
HOCR organizers conspiring against him
Wife won't let him row that far from shore without his water wings

[mikvan52]

It is a shame. I agree with you detlefchef..

It is also a shame that he will not learn to scull with good technique. I am sure he would be fast.

It's unusual for me to disagree with you Byron but with "100 million meters" of erg strokes behind him (designed for the erg only) and v.few decent water meters "reneger-ranger" has only a minute chance to do anything respectable on the water.. ever...(coaching or no coaching) He's getting old and won't want to consider radical changes...

In his case (as his numerous videos show... he has not developed a water stroke yet...and am not even addressing boat handling issues. Conditioning is not the issue..it's basic technique (such as his habit of setting his body angle and coming back up the slide in one combined motion)

This was my point for inviting him to row with me in a 2x at Masters Nationals this coming August. I would do my best but ranger would stop the boat with his "checking"-style... We will not make it out of the heats IF he shows....

I would propose that we scull at 28 spm with our best form after we lengthen off a standard starting sequence..We'd be hard pressed to stay in the lead after 750 meters.. I wonder what his best 1k time OTW is

Should he hang-out long enough to try his hand in a 1x:
It would be a riot to watch him try to beat Rick Anderson in the open "F" 1x (60-64 yr men)... or in the lightweights who are just as fast.

As for the Head of the Charles... perhaps the "Club" single would be good for him the first year.
Spousta, Meyer, & Dietz (2 yrs older than the prof.){ranger's cohorts} will not see his name on the results any less than 3 minutes behind them. That's quite a margin over a 4800m piece...

60 to 65 HOCR race results

There are numerous fast scullers coming up to join the fastest current 60-65 group each year... It's not like the 60-65 lightweight erg category where there's a paucity of participants...

[Byron Drachman]

He's getting old and won't want to consider radical changes...

Good point. Also, there is a certain humility that one needs in order to listen to instructions and try to make changes accordingly.

[ranger]

I would propose that we scull at 28 spm with our best form after we lengthen off a standard starting sequence

Fine with me.

I look forward to it.

My "checking" style?

You haven't seen me scull.

The only videos you have seen are two years old.

I have put in a couple of million meters OTW since then.

I have gotten _much_ better.

This next year, I'll try to start early in the season and put in 20K a day.

April
June
July
August
September
October

30 x 6 x 20K = 3.6 million meters?

ranger

[ranger]

Rich has averaged 6:58.x for single 2k efforts... very puzzling....

No, it's not puzzling, Mike.

Last year, I pulled 6:41, probably at AT, not even training to race, with no distance rowing or sharpening.

Both this year and last, you pulled 6:50, fully trained.

AT is five seconds per 500m from being fully trained for a 2K.

That suggests 1:35 fully trained.

Actually, I think it will be 1:34, given the good distance rowing that I have been doing, not to mention some excellent and extended cross-training, better weight control, and continuing advances with technique.

I am now sharpening hard.

ranger

[johnlvs2run]

I'll try 32 spm in Cleveland on Sunday.

That should be sub-6:30

That is 9.6 meters per stroke.

efficiency (8mps) x ....................................... y ................ z effective (spi)

x = 8 mps, efficient for racing
y = 9.6 mps, slow for racing (lwt)
z = high mps, slowest rowing (spi)

[Nosmo]

Last year, I pulled 6:41, probably at AT, not even training to race

$1000 on the line, one second too slow and you didn't even try to race. I guess one doesn't have to try if one has no intention of paying.

[Bob S.]

If you are actually dumb enough to do intervals a day or two before a race, your fate is sealed

What the hell is wrong with that? I have done that sort of thing several times with good results. In an OTW regatta, a competitor might have to do 2-3 heats over a period of 1-2 days. In fact, at the master's nationals, many rowers sign up for several races - as many as 8. Even the C-Bs used to have heats a number of years ago. I remember having to do two races in two days.

This year I did a 5K time trial two days before the C-B race and got a best going back a couple of seasons. It gave me no trouble on competition day.

On another occasion, at a satellite regatta, I did a 30' time trial about an hour and a half after the 2K race and came up with a post-op PB. It may have been dumb in your estimation, but it worked for me.

Bob S.

[Byron Drachman]

IF accurately reported, our hero's workouts are far too intense, there is inadequate rest, and there is far too much emphasis on high HR work when the research indicates a large volume of relatively low intensity training delivers far better results.

Here is an interesting source giving some details on what Leadville said:

From http://home.hia.no/~stephens/interval.htm

Ok, you are one of these guys that likes to get in your boat or on your rowing machine every workout and hammer away for 500 to 2000 meters, then stop in the onrushing storm of lactic acid agony, only to repeat the process several more times after a few minutes rest. The workout leaves you exhausted, dry mouthed, and wobbly legged. Surely it will make you faster. You say, "Why bother training at less than race speed? If you want to race fast, you must train fast, always". Runners, Cyclists, swimmers, the same mentality can be found among you. Coming from a more speed and power oriented mentality, this was also my training inclination, for several years when I entered into endurance training. Heck, I was just making my interval trained rats do my workout! But, after reaching a plateau pretty quickly, I started looking, experimenting, and learning.

The German Rowers ease off the throttle

A few years ago, I came across extensive data collected on German national team rowers by their team of physiologists. They were regulary evaluated with blood tests during and after workouts. After accumulating a lot of measurements over a training year, some interesting results were reported. Eighty percent of the training volume among elite German rowers was performed at a lactate concentration under 2.0 mM!( a value at or only slightly above resting levels) Only one or two percent of the training volume was at "RACE PACE". (Remember in competitive rowing, the events last 5.5 to 8 minutes, so race pace is above VO2 max.) From what I knew of their training back in the 50s and 60s, I had assumed that the Germans (and the Soviets) trained at brutal intensities, and those who didn't survive were replaced. Had the Germans become wimps? Well, actually at the exact time of these tests in the late 80s , they were the dominant world power in rowing with multiple world champions ranging across the boat class spectrum. So, whatever they were doing was working.

Why?