The Two Types of Training

[ranger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BULP7U3N ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZNaWFqf_OE

ranger

[snowleopard]

So let me get this right: in Cincinnati on a new machine you whacked the lever to 10 thinking it would be the same as your erg at home? You didn't bother to check the drag?



You have been erging and around these forums for how long? No wonder it has taken you so long to learn how to erg.

No, wait, you haven't. Since you can only 'row well' at very high drag you still haven't learned to lead with your legs. Doesn't bode well for your OTW rowing.

But so it goes.

Each to his own.

[ranger]

The ideal workout right now for me is Zatopek 2Ks, 20 x 2K, 1:42 @ 28 spm (11.78 SPI).

Middlin' UT1

Maybe I'll try that on Sunday, while I watch the B's.

I suspect that Mike VB will row about 6:48/1:42 on Sunday, although he'll probably try to rate 36 spm, not 28 spm.

ranger

[ranger]

Since you can only 'row well' at very high drag you still haven't learned to lead with your legs.

No, I can row well at lower drags, too.

Higher drags just give me even more speed with less effort.

So why not?

I am only a little lightweight.

My legs aren't very long.

And I am old.

So my aerobic capacity isn't that high.

If you are gonna row 6:00 for 2K, you gotta get some easy force some somewhere, no?

I get it from my torso, pulling against a high drag.

My stroke really swings.

I suspect that I am one of those guys that gets 40% of the force of their stroke from their torso.

As Kleshnev reports, this is what the better rowers do.

Slower rowers just use their arms and legs.

Most bad rowers neglect the swing in their stroke entirely.

Therefore, they lose close to half the force they might generate if they learned how to make their stroke swing, especially against a high drag.

40% of 12 SPI is 4.8 SPI.

12 SPI minus 4.8 SPI is 7.2 SPI.

Yea.

That's about what most bad 60s lightweights pull per stroke when they row.

At 10 MPS, that's 2:05 @ 24 spm (7.4 SPI).

Yep.

Last year, the best 60s marathon was George Meredith'2 2:52.35.

That's 2:02.7 pace.

He probably rated 25 spm, pulling right around 7.2 SPI.

I am going to rate 28 spm and pull 11.78 SPI.

It helps a lot if you really make it swing!

ranger

[ranger]

If it were possible to generate more easy power and therefore go faster over 2K putting an emphasis on short, old legs pushing againsst a low drag rather than a big swing of the torso pulling against a high drag, I suspect that Mike VB would be doing it.

He rows beautifully.

OTW, for those my age, he is both the lightweight and heavyweight US National Champion.

But he isn't doing it.

Mike only pulls 9.5 SPI in a 2K.

He pumps his legs like mad and gets no power whatsoever.

He is as slow as molasses.

For Mike, 1:42 isn't UT1.

It is TR, pushing into AN.

1:52 is UT1, and even so, top-end UT1, not just a middlin' UT1 session.

For 20 x 2K, I suspect that Mike would find 1:54 comfortable.

1:42 would be pretty out of reach.

ranger

[Carl Watts]

Interesting I have been rowing for years with a Drag Factor of 168 on My Model C, which is position 6. Recently cleaned it spotless and fitted a C-Breeze and now row position 7 which gets me back to 167-168.

It is funny how the Drag Factor gets overlooked and is yet it must be a critical setting. I have recently been told by a good OTW rower of similar age and weight to me that he is using 135 ! We totally overlooked this months ago and just jumped to other things like pace, SPM and DPS etc.

I'm going to try 135 which looks to be about a 5 setting again next week so it will be interesting to see what the effect will be. I guess I have been doing more strength training rather than speed training ?

168 has resulted in a comfortable 1:55 ave/500m at 23 SPM for 30 to 40 minutes over the last couple of months of getting more serious on the Erg and have been focusing on getting my rating down while improving my pace at the same time. At the moment the gains are significant but it should plateau at some point.

I would be very interested in other peoples feedback on the effect of the DF and especially what other people of my age and weight are using and what effect changing it has made.

[ranger]

Interesting I have been rowing for years with a Drag Factor of 168 on My Model C, which is position 6. Recently cleaned it spotless and fitted a C-Breeze and now row position 7 which gets me back to 167-168.

It is funny how the Drag Factor gets overlooked and is yet it must be a critical setting. I have recently been told by a good OTW rower of similar age and weight to me that he is using 135 ! We totally overlooked this months ago and just jumped to other things like pace, SPM and DPS etc.

I'm going to try 135 which looks to be about a 5 setting again next week so it will be interesting to see what the effect will be. I guess I have been doing more strength training rather than speed training ?

168 has resulted in a comfortable 1:55 ave/500m at 23 SPM for 30 to 40 minutes over the last couple of months of getting more serious on the Erg and have been focusing on getting my rating down while improving my pace at the same time. At the moment the gains are significant but it should plateau at some point.

I would be very interested in other peoples feedback on the effect of the DF and especially what other people of my age and weight are using and what effect changing it has made.

What drag is best for you depends on your length and how you row.

If you generate most of your power with your long legs and arms, with less emphasis on the swing of your torso, use a lower drag.

If you have short legs and arms and therefore have to generate a lot of your power with a big swing of your torso, with less emphasis on your legs and arms, use a higher drag.

ranger

[ranger]

As I understand, rowing in an eight OTW feels like 95 drag.

Rowing a quad OTW feels 140 drag.

Rowing in a single OTW feels like 185 drag.

ranger

[Steve G]

Undoubtedly, like the great older Finnish marathoners (e.g., Antti Varis), the elevated pace I am able to hold in my distance rowing is due to the high drag I am using.

185

It is more than a bit unusual to have a 60-year-old lightweight rowing well on the erg at 185 drag.

SNIP

ranger

Sheesh you are confusing me once again Rich.

You are younger than me and suddenly you hop forward to a 60 year old. Is it still February? I hope so, otherwise I have missed my 60th birthday in October 2010. This means I have missed collecting my bus pass, heating allowance, free prescriptions etc!
Stick a calendar on your wall with the page up when you are actually 60, quite simple.

As for not checking the DF at Cincinatti, unbelievable, a true classic of an excuse, you just flew and died, simple!!!

Steve

[ranger]

Andy Ripley generated a lot of his power with a big swing of his torso, if you ever saw him row.

He was pretty good on the erg, too.



I saw Ripley row at BIRC 2003.

ranger

[ranger]

As for not checking the DF at Cincinatti, unbelievable

Obviously, I _did_ check it.

But I thought it might be fun to try 210.

Back in 2002, I rowed at 210 drag.

I just threw the lever up to max and hauled with my back.

I pulled 6:27.5 in my first race.

I was 51 years old.

Give that I now row more correctly, leading with my legs, 210 is probably too high, given my size and age.

Too hard on the legs, the costliest levers.

I will keep the drag down to 185 in the rest of my races this year--and on into the future.

ranger

[ranger]

Effectiveness (spi) has nothing to do with efficiency.

Sure it does, and in ways that are just the opposite of what you are suggesting (i.e., that efficiency is more fundamental that effectiveness).

Like many things (psychology/sanity, diet/health, sensory perception, anatomy, grammar, chemistry, social organization, government, bureaucracies, curricula, etc.) rowing well is a holarchy.

It involves a hierarchy of elements, structures, processes, and regulatory/integrating sysems, some more fundamental, some less fundamental, built up from simple to complex, so that at each level, the level below is included in the level above.

You can't have a sentence without a clause. You can't have a clause without a phrase. You can't have a phrase without a word.

In training for rowing, effectiveness is more fundamental than efficiency.

You can be _very_ effective without being efficient.

But you can't be efficient without being effective.

If you have no stroking power, you don't go anywhere very fast when you raise the rate.

As in your case, which is entirely the norm for 60s lwts.

The issue with efficiency in rowing is not just how to row at a high rate.

Rowing with a high rate is a cinch.

The first issue in rowing is to learn to be effective, learning how to move a boat, spin a wheel.

The second issue is to learn to do this work efficiently while retaining that effectiveness.

You are also wrong in claiming that efficiency and effectiveness are unrelated.

For instance, as it turns out, if you get the mechanics and integrating rhythm of the rowing stroke right, it aids both effectiveness and efficiency.

Length and speed with the legs is matched with length and speed with the arms, with a big slow swing/pry with the torso in between.

That augments effectiveness.

But speed with the legs takes some of the burden off the big slow pry with the torso in between and so quickens and lightens the middle of the drive.

And speed with the arms quickens the recovery (hands away!), which cuts recovery time.

That augments efficiency.

In the end, effectiveness and efficiency are intimately related.

But you can't really practice efficiency at all if you are ineffective.

Why?

You don't know how to row.

ranger

[ranger]

you just flew and died

Yea.

Clearly, given where I am in my training, I wasn't ready to race yet.

I haven't even completed my distance rowing, and I have only done a little sharpening.

Then my bad travel arrangements and stupid use of an elevated drag just made things worse.

No matter.

I have other races this winter, one still over three weeks away.

If I can do 20 x 2K @ 1:42 on Sunday, I will hardly be disappointed with my training.

If I can do it, by far, it will be the best session I have ever done; therefore, I will be in great shape to do well in my up-coming races.

4 x 2K @ 1:42 predicts a 6:32 2K.

20 x 2K @ 1:42 predicts a 6:08 2K.

20 x 2K is done at top-end UT1.

A top-end UT1 of 1:42 predicts a 6:08 2K.

My distance rowing is really coming around.

It is about six seconds per 500m better than it was six years ago.

Because I now make effective use of my legs, I get about 20 kgs. more peak power in my stroke, with no extra cost.

This increases the overall power of my stroke about 2 SPI.

ranger

[ranger]

346 days--and counting--until I am 60.

Tick, tick, tick.

ranger

[snowleopard]

As for not checking the DF at Cincinatti, unbelievable

Don't paraphrase when you quote.