The Two Types of Training

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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ranger
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Post by ranger » February 12th, 2010, 6:04 am

hjs wrote:he mike


Good luck in Boston, take the hammer and the WR !
How can he lose?

He won't have any competition.

I suspect he'll win by 20 seconds.

The erg will have the last laugh, though.

It will record his time.

Erg races have no significance whatsoever, especially erg races that are often buried in two feet of snow, and therefore inaccessible.

The erg is a training tool.

In indoor rowing, what is important is how fast you are--wherever, whenever.

Both Graham Watt and Rocket Roy set their WRs in the early fall.

Neither ever rowed their best at WIRC.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Post by ranger » February 12th, 2010, 6:14 am

snowleopard wrote:Mike is a well-prepared and composed athlete. Nothing that you say now will deflect him from his goal on Sunday. You should go along and learn something about racing.
Nothing to learn there.

I have quite a few more composed, accomplished 2Ks on the erg than Mike.

There have indeed been lots of other things to learn about rowing, though, and I have worked hard to learn what I need to in order to row my best.

I started learning at 55 years old what Mike learned at 18 years old and has practiced continuously for forty years.

So our cases are not at all parallel.

I think I have done very well indeed, given my late start.

Mike might have been pretty hard pressed to do anything like what he has done, or will do, in rowing, both OTW or on the erg, now that he is approaching 60, if he hadn't sat on an erg until he was 50 or stepped into a boat until he was 55.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 12th, 2010, 6:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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hjs
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Post by hjs » February 12th, 2010, 6:23 am

ranger wrote:
hjs wrote:he mike


Good luck in Boston, take the hammer and the WR !
How can he lose?

He won't have any competition.

ranger
If he rows the Wr and he has a very good change of doing so, he simply is the best. He indeed doesn,t have much competion, that is exactly the mening of being the best.
He also very likely will better his time from last year.

So he hammer, the wr and improving himself. I think you can,t do much better :lol:

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Post by ranger » February 12th, 2010, 6:28 am

hjs wrote:So he hammer, the wr and improving himself. I think you can,t do much better
Nothing to argue with here, either.

I didn't say anything against this.

Who are you talking to?

The hammer, the WR, and some improvement, even if he accomplishes them all--none of these things has anything to do with Mike's severely limited aerobic capacity, which I have been mentioning.

I didn't say Mike could do better.

I said that _others_ could do better, if and when they come along.

_Lots_ better.

As much as a half a minute over 2K.

And these others will indeed come along.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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hjs
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Post by hjs » February 12th, 2010, 6:44 am

ranger wrote:
hjs wrote:So he hammer, the wr and improving himself. I think you can,t do much better
Nothing to argue with here, either.

I didn't say anything against this.

Who are you talking to?

The hammer, the WR, and some improvement, even if he accomplishes them all--none of these things has anything to do with Mike's severely limited aerobic capacity, which I have been mentioning.

I didn't say Mike could do better.

I said that _others_ could do better, if and when they come along.

_Lots_ better.

As much as a half a minute over 2K.

ranger

So you say that someone can win the hammer in a WR but someelse will break that wr with 30 seconds in that season hahahahahahahaha

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Post by snowleopard » February 12th, 2010, 6:57 am

ranger wrote:none of these things has anything to do with Mike's severely limited aerobic capacity, which I have been mentioning.
But why have you been mentioning it? What's the context and what's the relevance? It has nothing to do with you or your performances.

Supposing for the moment that we do accept your premise, what's to be done? Nothing, zip, nada. It's a fait accompli so you bringing it up achieves what?

Look to your own performances and your own aerobic capacity which must be woeful given several handle downs during a 7:11.

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Post by NavigationHazard » February 12th, 2010, 7:21 am

Lots of noise to signal this morning on Battcave Radio.

I make it posts at 10:04 pm server time* (1 edit); 10:19 pm (21 edits); 10:39 pm; 11:44 pm (2 edits); 12:01 am; 12:25 am; 12:43 am (1 edit); 1:21 am; 1:34 am (8 edits); 1:43 am; 1:50 am (1 edit); 1:54 am (4 edits); 2:04 am; 2:14 am (1 edit); 2:28 am....

15 new posts since midnight local time, these edited an astounding 39 times. Imagine what the static will be like on Sunday....

* 1:04 am Ann Arbor time
67 MH 6' 6"

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Steve G
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Post by Steve G » February 12th, 2010, 8:19 am

Nav
He must be a fast typer, he has stated numerous times he only posts 30 minutes a day :)


Steve

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jliddil
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Post by jliddil » February 12th, 2010, 9:09 am

Diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia (USA criteria)

Characteristic Schizophrenia symptoms:

Two (or more) of the following, each present for a significant portion of time during a 1-month period (or less if successfully treated):


Delusions - false beliefs strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: for example,
Paranoid delusions, or delusions of persecution, for example believing that people are "out to get" you, or the thought that people are doing things when there is no external evidence that such things are taking place.
Delusions of reference - when things in the environment seem to be directly related to you even though they are not. For example it may seem as if people are talking about you or special personal messages are being communicated to you through the TV, radio, or other media.
Somatic Delusions are false beliefs about your body - for example that a terrible physical illness exists or that something foreign is inside or passing through your body.
Delusions of grandeur - for example when you believe that you are very special or have special powers or abilities. An example of a grandiouse delusion is thinking you are a famous rock star.
Hallucinations - Hallucinations can take a number of different forms - they can be:
Visual (seeing things that are not there or that other people cannot see),
Auditory (hearing voices that other people can't hear,
Tactile (feeling things that other people don't feel or something touching your skin that isn't there.)
Olfactory (smelling things that other people cannot smell, or not smelling the same thing that other people do smell)
Gustatory experiences (tasting things that isn't there)
Disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence) - these are also called "word salads". Ongoing disjointed or rambling monologues - in which a person seems to talking to himself/herself or imagined people or voices.
Grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior (An abnormal condition variously characterized by stupor/innactivity, mania, and either rigidity or extreme flexibility of the limbs).
"Negative" symptoms of Schizophrenia , these symptoms are the lack of important abilities. Some of these include:
Alogia, or poverty of speech, is the lessening of speech fluency and productivity, thought to reflect slowing or blocked thoughts, and often manifested as short, empty replies to questions.

Affective flattening is the reduction in the range and intensity of emotional expression, including facial expression, voice tone, eye contact (person seems to stare, doesn't maintain eye contact in a normal process), and is not able to interpret body language nor use appropriate body language.

Avolition is the reduction, difficulty, or inability to initiate and persist in goal-directed behavior; it is often mistaken for apparent disinterest. (examples of avolition include: no longer interested in going out and meeting with friends, no longer interested in activities that the person used to show enthusiasm for, no longer interested in much of anything, sitting in the house for many hours a day doing nothing.)

A short summary of a list of negative symptoms are:

lack of emotion - the inability to enjoy regular activities (visiting with friends, etc.) as much as before
Low energy - the person tends to sit around and sleep much more than normal
lack of interest in life, low motivation
Affective flattening - a blank, blunted facial expression or less lively facial movements, flat voice (lack of normal intonations and variance) or physical movements.
Alogia (difficulty or inability to speak)
Inappropriate social skills or lack of interest or ability to socialize with other people
Inability to make friends or keep friends, or not caring to have friends
Social isolation - person spends most of the day alone or only with close family

Note: Only one Criterion A symptom is required if delusions are bizarre or hallucinations consist of a voice keeping up a running commentary on the person?s behavior or thoughts, or two or more voices conversing with each other.


Cognitive Symptoms of Schizophrenia
Cognitive symptoms refer to the difficulties with concentration and memory. These can include:
disorganized thinking
slow thinking
difficulty understanding
poor concentration
poor memory
difficulty expressing thoughts
difficulty integrating thoughts, feelings and behavior


Social/occupational dysfunction: For a significant portion of the time since the onset of the disturbance, one or more major areas of functioning such as work, interpersonal relations, or self-care are markedly below the level achieved prior to the onset (or when the onset is in childhood or adolescence, failure to achieve expected level of interpersonal, academic, or occupational achievement).


Duration: Continuous signs of the disturbance persist for at least 6 months. This 6-month period must include at least 1 month of symptoms (or less if successfully treated) that meet Criterion A (i.e., active-phase symptoms) and may include periods of prodromal or residual symptoms. During these prodromal or residual periods, the signs of the disturbance may be manifested by only negative symptoms or two or more symptoms listed in Criterion A present in an attenuated form (e.g., odd beliefs, unusual perceptual experiences).


Schizoaffective and mood disorder exclusion: Schizoaffective disorder and mood disorder with psychotic features have been ruled out because either (1) no major depressive, manic, or mixed episodes have occurred concurrently with the active-phase symptoms; or (2) if mood episodes have occurred during active-phase symptoms, their total duration has been brief relative to the duration of the active and residual periods.


Substance/general medical condition exclusion: The disturbance is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g., a drug of abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition.


Relationship to a pervasive developmental disorder: If there is a history of autistic disorder or another pervasive developmental disorder, the additional diagnosis of schizophrenia is made only if prominent delusions or hallucinations are also present for at least a month (or less if successfully treated).

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Didn't read any ranger stuff today

Post by mikvan52 » February 12th, 2010, 9:48 am

To all:

I didn't read the pages of ranger posts today.

To Rich: I usually do so enjoy the diversion. Keep it up. You have the posting crown ~ more posts than meters :wink:

Isn't it time for new issue of your book =>an update: to add a new chapter ? What will the Chapter Title be.... MODESTY ?

Image
{title page of ranger's magnum opus}


I'll just stick with rowing....

Last week: Rowing with our friend "leadville"
Image


Here's where my rowing started.. back in the 1950's Forever Lwt!
Image

well, at least I had the
"left over right" part down at that tender age... :)

Here's a common margin of victory for me these days OTW at 1k (Derby Sweeps and Sculls 2009)
Image

The orange buoys mark the finish line
( :oops:I guess I'm not modest either :oops: )

or perhaps Rich would like Moving pictures.. ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw_q10ruz2U

see? low rate can win :idea:

Kurmakov (long-time successful coach at Simmons and former Ukraine star as a young man was second)(this was a heats and finals event at 1k)
3 Crash-B hammers
American 60's Lwt. 2k record (6:49) •• set WRs for 60' & FM •• ~ now surpassed
repeat combined Masters Lwt & Hwt 1x National Champion E & F class
62 yrs, 160 lbs, 6' ...

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Citroen
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Post by Citroen » February 12th, 2010, 11:36 am

jliddil wrote:Diagnostic criteria for schizophrenia (USA criteria)

Characteristic Schizophrenia symptoms:
I thought the closet psychiatrists on here had come up with a diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder, not schizophrenia.

There's just one Ranger who thinks the sun shines out of his tail, not one who has an imaginary friend with that condition.
Dougie Lawson
61yrs, 172cm, Almost LWt (in my dreams).
Twitter: @DougieLawson

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Post by chgoss » February 12th, 2010, 12:08 pm

Sour grapes is an expression originating from the Aesop Fable The Fox and the Grapes. It always refers to an unattainable goal and human reaction to it. It can mean to deny desire for the unattainable item. More often, it refers to the nature of humans to rationalize why they wouldn't want it anyway. The phrase has come to be synonymous with bitterness in most modern contexts.
52 M 6'2" 200 lbs 2k-7:03.9
1 Corinthians 15:3-8

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Post by johnlvs2run » February 12th, 2010, 12:14 pm

ranger wrote:For lightweights who row effectively, pulling 12 SPI when they race, those who rate 30 spm in a 2K pull 1:39; those who rate 32 spm pull 1:37, those who rate 34 spm pull 1:35; those who rate 36 spm pull 1:33; those who rate 38 spm pull 1:31.5; those who rate 40 spm pull 1:30.

If their aerobic capacity is good, efficiency determines how high they can get the rate.

ranger
This effective vs efficient discussion goes back a long time.

If I understand correctly what you're saying:
effectiveness = the energy expended in each stroke;
efficiency = combining effectiveness with high ratings.

At some point there's a tradeoff. In your case, you are maximizing your energy expenditure with each stroke, because that's what spi is.

Then you are trying to up your rating, after expending all of your energy.

To me, that sounds like a conflicting ambition, that is at least extremely unlikely, and more likely impossible.

It is impossible because, as you gain any capability to increase the rating, this is first expended in effectiveness, thus lost to efficiency.

The result is that you can never have any gain of efficiency.

This is why I feel you should let the spi go, because it is sabotaging you and it is sabotaging your rowing.
bikeerg 75 5'8" 155# - 18.5 - 51.9 - 568 - 1:52.7 - 8:03.8 - 20:13.1 - 14620 - 40:58.7 - 28855 - 1:23:48.0
rowerg 56-58 5'8.5" 143# - 1:39.6 - 3:35.6 - 7:24.0 - 18:57.4 - 22:49.9 - 7793 - 38:44.7 - 1:22:48.9 - 2:58:46.2

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NavigationHazard
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Post by NavigationHazard » February 12th, 2010, 12:39 pm

SPI doesn't track a rower's energy expenditure per stroke. It is nothing more and nothing less than watts on the monitor divided by rating.

SPI as a metric has nothing to say about how efficient a rower might be as far as turning his/her grunt (muscular effort) into handle movement. Nor does it say anything about the mechanical efficiency of an erg, i.e. its input/output relationship.
67 MH 6' 6"

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jliddil
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Post by jliddil » February 12th, 2010, 12:46 pm

Delusions of grandeur - for example when you believe that you are very special or have special powers or abilities. An example of a grandiouse delusion is thinking you are a famous rock star.


Delusions of reference - when things in the environment seem to be directly related to you even though they are not. For example it may seem as if people are talking about you or special personal messages are being communicated to you through the TV, radio, or other media.


Disorganized speech (e.g., frequent derailment or incoherence) - these are also called "word salads". Ongoing disjointed or rambling monologues - in which a person seems to talking to himself/herself or imagined people or voices.


Inappropriate social skills or lack of interest or ability to socialize with other people
Cognitive Symptoms of Schizophrenia
Cognitive symptoms refer to the difficulties with concentration and memory. These can include:

disorganized thinking

slow thinking

difficulty understanding

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