6:28 2K

[Nosmo]

Rich will beat this time if he goes to a race this weekend.

I'll give you 2:1 odds that if he shows up he doesn't beat your 6:47. Max ($100 for me $50 for you).
I'd would give you even odds you have the faster time at the end of the season--but that would be betting against yourself.

[johnlvs2run]

The young world-class rowers monitored here exhibit a constant emphasis on low-intensity steady-state rowing exercise

It is surprising to me that most of the world class rowers, as cited in your example, row exactly the way that I have,
as 90-100% of my rowing other than intervals, repetitions, and timetrials, has been at relatively low intensities,
with heart rate in the range of 105-120. Not at 80% heart rate all the time at low rates! How about that.

In fact probably none of the world class lightweight Danes and Italians, Ebbesen, Luini, Stephansen, have rowed regularly and intensely at 20 spm.
There was a fellow interviewed who was trained by Ebbesen a few years ago, who said Ebbesen did not do any low rate (r20) rowing and did not have him do it either.

Regarding your image, here is another one from the rojabo site. In fact it is impossible to row 100 watts at 2:00 pace at 20/22/24 spm.
But that's what is shown on the image. Hmm how about that. The image has nothing to do with what Stephansen does.


What we do know is that Stephansen races at 43 spm in a 2k. We do know that Ebbesen and Luini set their WR's at 41-43 spm.
We do know that training is specific. As you train, so shall ye race.
Low rate rowing is conditioning, not training. Rowing hard at low rates is preparation to race at low rates.

[mikvan52]

Thanks, Nosmo! But I do have faith in Rich's abilities. He is a strong erg athlete. I wish I had been trained way back in the early days. We could have gone head to head... and Dennis (Hastings) or Roy would have won

and !......Where's Ned Ryerson when we need him?



This is just as good:

I should get the WR this weekend at Cincinnati, hopefully by about ten seconds.

Wish me luck!

Then I can start my hard sharpening.

Nosmo: Notice he does not say:

"I'll get the WR this weekend at Cincinnati."

The "should"-goddess is in control of his future.

Prediction: A lwt time barely good enough for the free ticket to Boston.
"UT2" "Hard sharpening about to start for Detroit race"

"so put your little hand in mine
There ain't no hills or mountains we can't climb"

6:00 am Punxatawney Time is on it's way again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzYBuKaQ83s

[johnlvs2run]

Rojabo Power Efficiency Test

Power efficiency is a way of measuring the most important part of your rowing skills: your ability to transfer power from your body to your boat.

Following a set of simple instructions, you report your performance at different stroke rates.

Based on the results from your Power efficiency test, we estimate your Potential max on the 2000m.

These are probably relatively high ratings. But let's assume for a moment that they are low ratings, i.e. 20/22/24 spm. A friend of mine and I had almost identical times for the 500 meters, but as the distance got longer, my times were quite a bit faster than his. We did some similar low rate sessions by correspondence one summer. He trashed me at all the low ratings (we went down to 10 spm), sometimes by as much as 16s/500. He is 6'5 with a long torso and long arms. I am 5'8 1/2 with a medium build and long legs.

What could be predicted from that, except that he would trash me at regular ratings, which was totally false.

Another point is they are called "power efficiency" tests, which has to mean rowing at relatively high ratings. Rowing at low ratings is not an efficient production of power. And it's just a test anyway, not training. To become efficient applying power at 36 or 41 or 43 spm, one needs to train at 36 or 41 or 43 spm.

[johnlvs2run]

probably a lot of the hysteria around Rich is that he says he will do things he doesn't do (i.e. 'I will do X workout", "I will post my time tomorrow"."I will show a picture of my weight every morning starting monday" "I will do a 6:28 at home by the end of the month". "I will break the world record seven times in seven consecutive races"). A lot more of the hysteria is how he belittles the accomplishments of others. MorE still is that he has not paid any of his bets. More yet because of his dogmatic claims about the superiority of his training.

None of that bothers me. Why does it make you (or anyone) hysterical?

Rich did break the WR a few times. Maybe he will do it again.

[Nosmo]

......

None of that bothers me. Why does it make you (or anyone) hysterical?

Rich did break the WR a few times. Maybe he will do it again.

Actually I don't think anything I've written has been hysterical. I find this whole thread very entertaining. However I do understand why he pisses people off. A lot of liars and braggards do.

Maybe he will break the WR again, but I really doubt he will do it in the 50-59 age group. Last year I was actually hoping he would. He will certainly not get anywhere near 6:00 or 6:18 or even 6:28 like he has claimed or achieve any of his other long term goals. (Well he certainly can do 1000m in 6:00 which is what his signature actually says).

[Nosmo]

Thanks, Nosmo! But I do have faith in Rich's abilities. He is a strong erg athlete.

He is a very strong erg athlete. But he is a year older than last year. I don't believe he is getting faster. I don't believe he did not sharpen last year. So my bet is that he will be slower then last year and once again it will take him a number of races to get into the low 6:40s. I'd give the odds of him going under 6:43 a bit less then 50%. I think the odds of you doing so are more then 50%.

So I don't think my bet is a sure thing. but I really thing the odds are with me.

[NavigationHazard]

Tell you what, John. You go right on thinking that the Danish LWs train on the erg "just like you," and that the German U23 internationals train "just like you." And that the British Olympians from Redgrave to Hodge are barking up the wrong tree with their low-rate training. Or that Michelle Guerette won't ever get anywhere doing bungee-cord drills in her 1x at 18 spm to boost her power. Or that Australia's national coaches are wrong to use a 30' r20 test as part of their power/endurance assessment. Or that Rob Waddell erred in rowing his WR 2k in 1998 at 33.5 spm. Low-rate losers all.

[mikvan52]

the odds are ...

Right on the money!

The key concept on Groundhog's Day is "odd", naturally

"Things just get curiouser and curiouser"



So many out-of-the-way things had happened lately, that Alice had begun to think ... Curiouser and curiouser! Alice. How doth the little crocodile .... 'You might just as well say,' added the March Hare , that the crocodile ranger has entered two events at CRASH-B...
"Why?", said Alice in order for him to have extra time to rehydrate by the afternoon open lwt event and just paddle through the mornings event?...

In came the Red Queen demanding an explanation too: "Why, yes, I did see the registrations on the CRASH-B website. Crocodile ranger is there twice! Once on each side of the looking glass."

"What could the we beastie be up to?" the Cheshire Cat chimed in.

Pick, pick, pick... pick, pick,pick.. the chickens scratched unaware of the Frumious Bandersnatch. (to be continued)

[BrianStaff]

probably a lot of the hysteria around Rich is that he says he will do things he doesn't do (i.e. 'I will do X workout", "I will post my time tomorrow"."I will show a picture of my weight every morning starting monday" "I will do a 6:28 at home by the end of the month". "I will break the world record seven times in seven consecutive races"). A lot more of the hysteria is how he belittles the accomplishments of others. MorE still is that he has not paid any of his bets. More yet because of his dogmatic claims about the superiority of his training.

None of that bothers me. Why does it make you (or anyone) hysterical?

You think his behavior is OK?

His integrity level is zero - how can you respect someone like that?

[johnlvs2run]

You think his behavior is OK?

His integrity level is zero - how can you respect someone like that?

Sure, why not?
Rich goes to bed early, gets up quite early, and has done that all of his life.
He uses his time wisely, doing what he wishes to do, including working out for hours every day.
He is dedicated, determined, and puts in a tremenduous amount of work and effort to improve himself.

In addition, he appears to be a very nice fellow.

[leadville]

Ah, Ranger is getting cranky, as the time comes for him to actually emerge from under his rock and, in front of all, show what he can - and cannot - do.

Persisting in insulting his betters; Ranger's mentally stressed knowing he can't do what he's been claiming to be capable of, so he lashes out, seeking to divert attention from his own coming failure to a focus on others...



Hard to say if his delusion is so complete that he'll actually show up and race, or if he really knows (at a conscious level) that he can't deliver on his bragging.



Either way, going to be exciting, like watching one of those horror movies where the starlet is about to walk thru the door into the room where the ax-wielding phantasm hides in the shadows...

careful, ranger! think before you take that step! ≈

[whp4]

In addition, he appears to be a very nice fellow.

It's too bad you aren't going to WIRC -- apparently your presence would greatly increase the number of people present who would want to have a beer with him -- from 0 to 1!

I wouldn't advise wasting money on the flight unless you also intend to row or want to visit Boston, however, as I'm quite confident something will come up (yet again) that will prevent him from competing in a forum where weigh-in rules are properly enforced and stroke data published. Wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if that 7:04.3 he did in 2006 (you know, when he was going to beat all the heavies rowing as a lightweight) is the last result he ever posts there. But don't let that dissuade you from believing his claims that one's training exactly determines one's racing

I wonder if there has ever been another example of someone qualifying for a free ticket to WIRC taking 9% longer to finish than they did for the qualifying row?

[BrianStaff]

You think his behavior is OK?

His integrity level is zero - how can you respect someone like that?

Sure, why not?
Rich goes to bed early, gets up quite early....In addition, he appears to be a very nice fellow.

hmmm!, well...end of discussion then

[ranger]

Rich: Do you think resting is part of good training? Should one rest for several (non-consecutive) days out of the week?

I should share too: that I am not resting at
2k pace + 17 to 21 seconds and I am at 20 strokes per minute.

Do you call a pace like that (which for me or any other decent rower is 80% effort ) resting?

I am unable to characterize it as such. When I do such a workout for 45-80 minutes.. It's real work

{edit}

So: It was time for my evening workout. Happenstance: "easy rowing"

20' just to loosen up for a interval session tomorrow
111 drag factor
on slides (to enhance the OTW feel of good rowing)

20:00 - 4953m - 2:01.1 pace - 19 spm

Low hr... No monitor worn but probably in the 60-70% range of HRR
By the way: THese are VERIFIED HRR levels not ("I suppose my max is")

Is this a useless workout, to be scorned by the well trained 50+ rower?

No.... IMHO, it's extremely useful;

#1 It works neural pathways so that you can continue to row well at higher spm.

#2 It is not something reserved just for building one's base

#3 It is therapeutic for flushing out residual toxins from prior hard workouts.

IOW it is not simply "REST" it is restful training a required element.

If and when an erger goes on the water there is even more of it,... doing drills and such..


How many ergers "drill" for form on the erg? Fess- up!
I'll start:
I confess I hate to "drill" OTErg... How dreary!!
But... it's good for your rowing... Low rate stuff is a good substitute for formal drills because it lets you slow down and feel what is happening.
This needs to be done throughout one's rowing career.

Do not think that I am saying that all ergers should row as if they will have to move a boat. TO the contrary: Do what you like... But please do not say that Low Rate stuff is needed by NO ONE training for 2k.

Or just for rest...

I repeat (you are not listening), if you already row well, and are not just resting, keep the rate up.

Do you row well?

Rowing well is 13 SPI for lighweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights.

You are a lightweight.

So, sure, you can benefit enormously by rowing _all_ your meters at 20 spm and 13 SPI, until you row well.

13 SPM at 20 spm is 1:50 @ 20 spm, or heck, 1:47 @ 22 spm.

For you, we don't disagree at all about low rate rowing.

In fact, our disagreement goes the other way.

I think you should do _all_ your rowing at low rates--for years and years (as I did).

Until you row well.

But....

When you row well, there will no longer be any need.

As John (Rupp) so rightly claims, rowing at low rates is not an efficient production of power.

It is trudging.

You can't learn to row your best if you are just trudging all the time.

If anything, rowing is a rhythmical production of power.

PaulS is exactly right, I think, that the essence of the affair if feeling the right ratio to use in order to be maximally efficient.

I also think that he is right that this ratio, for everyone, is right around 10 MPS.

So, if you already are effective in your rowing, just row at 10 MPS up to the limits of how hard you would like to work.

Don't waste your time being inefficient, working on improving your effectiveness, which doesn't need improvement.

What needs improvement, what _always_ needs improvement in rowing, once you know how to row well, if your efficiency, learning, better and better, how to glide along producing power effortlessly by locking into the most efficient ratio for the level of work you are doing.

If you are a lightweight and can pull 13 SPI at low rates for miles and miles with just a natural stroke, you don't need to work on stroking power .
Right now, Eskild is pulling 10.5 SPI in a 2K.

But since he can pull 39 spm, he can row under 6:20 for 2K.

Almost no lightweights can row under 6:20 for 2K.

How do you get so that you can row like this?

Learn to row well (13 SPI).

Then learn to row efficiently (10 MPS) up to the limits of your aerobic capacity over long distances.

NB!!!!!

13 SPI @ 10 MPS is 1:34 @ 32 spm
12.4 SPI @ 10 MPS is 1:37 @ 31 spm
11.7 SPI @ 10 MPS is 1:40 @ 30 spm
11 SPI @ 10 MPS is 1:43 @ 29 spm

For you, it is an enormous labor to pull 13 SPI.

When you are rowing well, you are killing yourself.

So, sure, you should still be working on effectiveness--hard.

In fact, if you are ambitious about your rowing, I think you should be working at it all the time.

You are not yet rowing effectively.

And why try to be efficient if you are ineffective?

ranger