It is clearly time for me to just do a lot of distance rowing at 32 spm.
AT
Head racing.
Head of the Charles River stroke!
Hold that power per stroke (12.5 SPI).
Raise that rate (to 32 spm).
And relax!
Smooth and easy.
ranger
6:28 2K
I now row like Eskild, 1:40 @ 30 spm (11.7 SPI, 10 MPS), smooth as butter, heart rate floating _under_ my anaerobic threshold.
This meas that, like Eskild, I'll soon do this 1:40 @ 30 spm for 60min, 18K.
That's 2K faster than any 60s lightweight like myself has ever pulled (or my immediate competition in the 55s lwts, Rocket Roy and Mike V B ).
The margin, in terms of pace, is over a dozen seconds per 500m.
18K for 60min is a half mile further than Rod Freed's amazing 50s lightweight 60min rows.
18K for 60min predicts a 6:00 2K.
I suspect there are quite a few 60s lwts who can pull 60min @ 30 spm.
No problem with the rate.
The problem is the stroking power.
1:40 @ 30 spm is 11.7 SPI.
If they rate 30 spm, 60s lwts would pull 8 SPI (1:53.4 pace), lowering the wattage by 3.7 watts per stroke.
That's a lot!
At 30 spm, that's 111 watts!
13.4 seconds per 500m.
Sure, sure, sure.
You've told me again and again.
Technique and stroking power don't have anything to do with rowing on the erg.
They are just important on the water.
If you want to go fast on the erg, no need to pay any attention to these things at all.
For me, 1:40 is WR 2K pace.
60min is usually done at 2K + 10.
These are the historical standards for 60min in the male rankings:
Event Record Age Name Wt. Gender Country Season Verification*
60m 12268 12 Bjarne Brand H M DEU 2003 Historical record*
60m 13108 12 Briggs Polikoff L M USA 2009 PM3/PM4 verification code
60m 13371 81 Robert Spenger L M USA 2006 Historical record*
60m 13546 82 Robert Spenger H M USA 2008 PM3/PM4 verification code
60m 15034 70 Roger Bangay L M GBR 2007 Witnessed at public club
60m 15820 70 David W. Woodard H M USA 2009 PM3/PM4 verification code
60m 15928 60 Greg Hodge L M USA 2007 PM3/PM4 verification code
60m 16794 61 David Woodard H M USA 2000 Historical record*
60m 17022 50 Steve Krum H M USA 2005 Historical record*
60m 17123 17 Christian Schmidt H M DEN 2004 Historical record*
60m 17132 53 Rod Freed L M USA 2003 Historical record*
60m 17282 32 Dan Staite L M GBR 2006 Historical record*
60m 17285 46 Kent Timm L M USA 2005 Historical record*
60m 17319 29 Thomas Ebert L M DNK 2003 Historical record*
60m 17639 44 Poul Bysted H M DEN 2008 PM3/PM4 verification code
60m 17754 17 Matt McArthur L M USA 2005 Historical record*
60m 18128 27 Mahe Drysdale H M NZL 2006 Historical record*
60m 18221 34 Graham Benton H M GBR 2008 PM3/PM4 verification code
It appears that, at least according to these rankings, 18K for 60min is about as fast as anyone of any age or weight has ever done.
ranger
This meas that, like Eskild, I'll soon do this 1:40 @ 30 spm for 60min, 18K.
That's 2K faster than any 60s lightweight like myself has ever pulled (or my immediate competition in the 55s lwts, Rocket Roy and Mike V B ).
The margin, in terms of pace, is over a dozen seconds per 500m.
18K for 60min is a half mile further than Rod Freed's amazing 50s lightweight 60min rows.
18K for 60min predicts a 6:00 2K.
I suspect there are quite a few 60s lwts who can pull 60min @ 30 spm.
No problem with the rate.
The problem is the stroking power.
1:40 @ 30 spm is 11.7 SPI.
If they rate 30 spm, 60s lwts would pull 8 SPI (1:53.4 pace), lowering the wattage by 3.7 watts per stroke.
That's a lot!
At 30 spm, that's 111 watts!
13.4 seconds per 500m.
Sure, sure, sure.
You've told me again and again.
Technique and stroking power don't have anything to do with rowing on the erg.
They are just important on the water.
If you want to go fast on the erg, no need to pay any attention to these things at all.
For me, 1:40 is WR 2K pace.
60min is usually done at 2K + 10.
These are the historical standards for 60min in the male rankings:
Event Record Age Name Wt. Gender Country Season Verification*
60m 12268 12 Bjarne Brand H M DEU 2003 Historical record*
60m 13108 12 Briggs Polikoff L M USA 2009 PM3/PM4 verification code
60m 13371 81 Robert Spenger L M USA 2006 Historical record*
60m 13546 82 Robert Spenger H M USA 2008 PM3/PM4 verification code
60m 15034 70 Roger Bangay L M GBR 2007 Witnessed at public club
60m 15820 70 David W. Woodard H M USA 2009 PM3/PM4 verification code
60m 15928 60 Greg Hodge L M USA 2007 PM3/PM4 verification code
60m 16794 61 David Woodard H M USA 2000 Historical record*
60m 17022 50 Steve Krum H M USA 2005 Historical record*
60m 17123 17 Christian Schmidt H M DEN 2004 Historical record*
60m 17132 53 Rod Freed L M USA 2003 Historical record*
60m 17282 32 Dan Staite L M GBR 2006 Historical record*
60m 17285 46 Kent Timm L M USA 2005 Historical record*
60m 17319 29 Thomas Ebert L M DNK 2003 Historical record*
60m 17639 44 Poul Bysted H M DEN 2008 PM3/PM4 verification code
60m 17754 17 Matt McArthur L M USA 2005 Historical record*
60m 18128 27 Mahe Drysdale H M NZL 2006 Historical record*
60m 18221 34 Graham Benton H M GBR 2008 PM3/PM4 verification code
It appears that, at least according to these rankings, 18K for 60min is about as fast as anyone of any age or weight has ever done.
ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 1st, 2010, 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Holy Shit.
Five weeks of training to go and I am just glidiing along, 1:40 @ 30 spm (11.7 SPI, 10 MPS) _below_ my anaerobic threshold.
Shocking stuff.
Of course, after a few days of this, the thing to do would be 4 x 2K, 1:40 @ 30 spm.
Should be a piece of cake.
I might well do it at UT1, without ever seeing 170 bpm on the heart rate monitor and so _below_ my anaerobic threshold (of 172 bpm).
4 x 2K @ 1:40 predicts a 6:24 2K, and even so, this would be without even trying very hard.
6:24 is what Steve Krum just pulled for 2K.
I can't get _too_ excited here.
I need to just keep pacing myself.
No need to push too hard yet.
These results are too good.
Consolidate.
Consolidate.
Sell high.
Secure those profits.
Then buy the dip and wait for the next rip to sell again.
ranger
Five weeks of training to go and I am just glidiing along, 1:40 @ 30 spm (11.7 SPI, 10 MPS) _below_ my anaerobic threshold.
Shocking stuff.
Of course, after a few days of this, the thing to do would be 4 x 2K, 1:40 @ 30 spm.
Should be a piece of cake.
I might well do it at UT1, without ever seeing 170 bpm on the heart rate monitor and so _below_ my anaerobic threshold (of 172 bpm).
4 x 2K @ 1:40 predicts a 6:24 2K, and even so, this would be without even trying very hard.
6:24 is what Steve Krum just pulled for 2K.
I can't get _too_ excited here.
I need to just keep pacing myself.
No need to push too hard yet.
These results are too good.
Consolidate.
Consolidate.
Sell high.
Secure those profits.
Then buy the dip and wait for the next rip to sell again.
ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 1st, 2010, 4:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
great job! Nav.. and by the way ... Congratulations on being the only one of us who's posted 6:28 and better times on the 6:28 thread.
It is now becoming clear.
I am going to reach all of my targets.
My training has been perfect.
I have the best coach in the world.
By a large margin, 6:16 at 60 will be the best row in the history of the sport.
It will revise the standards for age-group rowing by 26 seconds, right around...say, what?
There's that seven seconds per 500m again!
ranger
I am going to reach all of my targets.
My training has been perfect.
I have the best coach in the world.
By a large margin, 6:16 at 60 will be the best row in the history of the sport.
It will revise the standards for age-group rowing by 26 seconds, right around...say, what?
There's that seven seconds per 500m again!
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Seven seconds per 500m is a _gigantic_ margin in rowing.
It will not be easy to overcome.
O.K., O.K.
Let's admit it.
It will be next to impossible to overcome.
This sport will have to alter its direction enormously, in terms of participation and intensity, for any 60-year-old lightweight to row 6:16 over the next few decades.
Sure, it could happen.
But it is not very likely.
Eskild is struggling with 6:16 right now--at 35 years old.
Mike Caviston's 40s lwt WR of 6:18, which is almost a decade old now, has never even been remotely challlenged by a 40-year-old lightweight.
The average decline with age in indoor rowing has been a pretty steady one second over 2K per year.
There doesn't seem to be much going on in the sport to alter that generalization.
This means that, for even the most committed rower, a lwt 6:00 2K at 30, six seconds under Eskild's current 30s lwt WR, becomes a lwt 6:30 2K at 60, twelve seconds under the current 60s lwt WR.
That 6:30 is still 14 seconds shy of 6:16.
ranger
It will not be easy to overcome.
O.K., O.K.
Let's admit it.
It will be next to impossible to overcome.
This sport will have to alter its direction enormously, in terms of participation and intensity, for any 60-year-old lightweight to row 6:16 over the next few decades.
Sure, it could happen.
But it is not very likely.
Eskild is struggling with 6:16 right now--at 35 years old.
Mike Caviston's 40s lwt WR of 6:18, which is almost a decade old now, has never even been remotely challlenged by a 40-year-old lightweight.
The average decline with age in indoor rowing has been a pretty steady one second over 2K per year.
There doesn't seem to be much going on in the sport to alter that generalization.
This means that, for even the most committed rower, a lwt 6:00 2K at 30, six seconds under Eskild's current 30s lwt WR, becomes a lwt 6:30 2K at 60, twelve seconds under the current 60s lwt WR.
That 6:30 is still 14 seconds shy of 6:16.
ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 1st, 2010, 5:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
I no longer have to do any low rate foundational rowing--ever.
I now row well.
Foundational rowing is for those who don't know how to row.
Another name for it might be "Learn to Row."
This means that Caviston's Wolverine Plan is inappropriate for anyone who knows how to row.
It is just for beginners and trudgers (like Caviston) who are effective but don't have a smooth, efficient stroke at a higher rate.
In this, PaulS is right.
If you know how to row, just row from day to day at 10 MPS.
Keep the rate up!
To hell with all that low rate anchor-hauling.
It will be interesting to see what Caviston pulls for 2k when he is 60.
From now on, I think I can just go back to rowing from day to day at 30 spm, give or take, even if I row for an hour or two.
Great stuff.
If this indeed happens, I will be doing all of my day-to-day distance rowing on the erg from now on at the current WR 2K pace.
Hey, Mike.
Sounds like good training for the HTCR.
No?
Rate 30 spm for a couple of hours on the erg at WR 2K pace.
Day after day.
Nice!
If I do that, I will also be able to rate 30 spm in my 1x from day to day, even if I row an hour or two OTW.
ranger
I now row well.
Foundational rowing is for those who don't know how to row.
Another name for it might be "Learn to Row."
This means that Caviston's Wolverine Plan is inappropriate for anyone who knows how to row.
It is just for beginners and trudgers (like Caviston) who are effective but don't have a smooth, efficient stroke at a higher rate.
In this, PaulS is right.
If you know how to row, just row from day to day at 10 MPS.
Keep the rate up!
To hell with all that low rate anchor-hauling.
It will be interesting to see what Caviston pulls for 2k when he is 60.
From now on, I think I can just go back to rowing from day to day at 30 spm, give or take, even if I row for an hour or two.
Great stuff.
If this indeed happens, I will be doing all of my day-to-day distance rowing on the erg from now on at the current WR 2K pace.
Hey, Mike.
Sounds like good training for the HTCR.
No?
Rate 30 spm for a couple of hours on the erg at WR 2K pace.
Day after day.
Nice!
If I do that, I will also be able to rate 30 spm in my 1x from day to day, even if I row an hour or two OTW.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
I think I'll be ready for that AT 2K, 1:37 @ 32 spm, by the end of the week.
I will do this trial at home.
If I am successful, then I can crank up the rate on my 500s and go for broke--AN--for a month.
That should get me the final three seconds per 500m I need to get to 1:34.
ranger
I will do this trial at home.
If I am successful, then I can crank up the rate on my 500s and go for broke--AN--for a month.
That should get me the final three seconds per 500m I need to get to 1:34.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Tanita scales say that I have gone under 10% body fat.
9.8% body fat this morning.
I am still doing a standard 3 hours of biking a day for cross-training.
No problem with it now.
_Very_ enjoyable, in fact, given my new ipod Touch.
I suspect that I will be 5% body fat by the first week in March.
I am just losing weight every day, sometimes more, sometimes less.
I ate like a pig yesterday--pasta, pasta sause with meat, fresh homemade guacamole, cheeses of various sorts (Blue, Gouda, Cheddar, Havarti), cookies, brownies, toast, eggs, salad, wine, mixed beans with dried cheerries and lemon butter, crackers, etc.
Maybe that's why I felt so good rowing today!
ranger
9.8% body fat this morning.
I am still doing a standard 3 hours of biking a day for cross-training.
No problem with it now.
_Very_ enjoyable, in fact, given my new ipod Touch.
I suspect that I will be 5% body fat by the first week in March.
I am just losing weight every day, sometimes more, sometimes less.
I ate like a pig yesterday--pasta, pasta sause with meat, fresh homemade guacamole, cheeses of various sorts (Blue, Gouda, Cheddar, Havarti), cookies, brownies, toast, eggs, salad, wine, mixed beans with dried cheerries and lemon butter, crackers, etc.
Maybe that's why I felt so good rowing today!
ranger
Last edited by ranger on February 1st, 2010, 7:59 am, edited 4 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
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NavigationHazard
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There's a long involved physiological explanation, boiling down to working the c**p out of skeletal muscles for a long cumulative time at a desired intensity while using a combination of rate discipline and rests to mitigate the cardiovascular stress.
Another non-trivial point is developing the stroking consistency/ economy/ efficiency that comes with lots of reps of the same thing. By way of partial illustration: if you row 50 identical strokes at 1:40 pace your average (and median) output per stroke will be 350 watts. Now try alternating one stroke at 1:35 pace with one stroke at 1:45 pace for 50 total strokes. You'll still average 1:40 pace. But your average output per stroke will be 355 watts, not 350. It's because power/velocity on an erg involves a cubic relationship: power requirements don't increase linearly as you go faster. The same sort of 'chatter' considerations also apply during a drive.
The less fluctuation in your power output, the more efficient you'll be in translating your grunt into pace. We're not necessarily talking great gains here. But still, somewhere I have a study of elite women rowers suggesting that 5% of the variance in their 2k erg times vs. prediction could be explained by power fluctuations. And those were rowers who already were pretty good at stroking consistently. IMO it's very hard to work on stroke consistency during long steady-state erg pieces because your attention wanders. Anyone however can learn to do 90-second pieces r24 by learning to complete 12 strokes every thirty seconds....
Another non-trivial point is developing the stroking consistency/ economy/ efficiency that comes with lots of reps of the same thing. By way of partial illustration: if you row 50 identical strokes at 1:40 pace your average (and median) output per stroke will be 350 watts. Now try alternating one stroke at 1:35 pace with one stroke at 1:45 pace for 50 total strokes. You'll still average 1:40 pace. But your average output per stroke will be 355 watts, not 350. It's because power/velocity on an erg involves a cubic relationship: power requirements don't increase linearly as you go faster. The same sort of 'chatter' considerations also apply during a drive.
The less fluctuation in your power output, the more efficient you'll be in translating your grunt into pace. We're not necessarily talking great gains here. But still, somewhere I have a study of elite women rowers suggesting that 5% of the variance in their 2k erg times vs. prediction could be explained by power fluctuations. And those were rowers who already were pretty good at stroking consistently. IMO it's very hard to work on stroke consistency during long steady-state erg pieces because your attention wanders. Anyone however can learn to do 90-second pieces r24 by learning to complete 12 strokes every thirty seconds....
67 MH 6' 6"
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NavigationHazard
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