6:28 2K

[ranger]

Lowering a male 50s age-group WR by over five seconds per 500m, and by as much as seven seconds per 500m past age and weight standards, would be...

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=125619#125619

FWIW: Isn't ranger nearly 60? Shouldn't we expect nearly a 5% drop in peak performance from him over 10 years? Oh, pardon me, "It's ranger".... call it 3% then

Depends on how hard you work at it--among other things (e.g., years of experience, rowing OTW, etc.).

Paul Hendershott was _faster_ at 60 than he was at 55, and he was much more experienced during this period than I was.

I have been getting better and better technically over the last seven years, which has more than compensating for any physical decline.

I didn't really start learning to row until I was 53.

I was almost 54 before I first got in a boat.

I didn't start working on technique until then.

On the erg, I broke the WR in my age and weight division as a novice, without knowing how to row.

When I was 52, I pulled 6:27.5 in my first public erg race, only the third all out 2K I had ever done, and without any coaching whatsoever about how to do it.

At that time, the 50s lwt WR was Jean-Paul Tardieu's 6:31.6.

If you learn to row well and train up a solid technique from low rates to high through all of the training bands, I think it is worth about four seconds per 500m vis-a-vis just yanking the chain, hard and fast, as I did back in 2002-2003.

That's a lot!

16 seconds over 2K.

If you are interested in competing at the highest level, even on the erg, rowing is a significantly technical sport.

ranger

[hjs]

When I was just 52, I pulled 6:27.5 in my first public erg race, only the third all out 2K I had ever done, without any coaching whatsoever about how to do it.

ranger

Now 40 races later that's still your PB, I wonder why

[ranger]

When I was just 52, I pulled 6:27.5 in my first public erg race, only the third all out 2K I had ever done, without any coaching whatsoever about how to do it.

ranger

Now 40 races later that's still your PB, I wonder why

I have been doing foundational rowing, learning to row, both OTW and off, not training to race.

As I have said endlessly, for _everyone_, not just me, you get a couple dozen seconds over 2K from hard distance rowing and sharpening, training to race, above and beyond working on foundational rowing, learning to row.

No, fully trained, I am not over two dozen seconds better over 2K than I was in 2002-2003.

Fully trained, I am only a dozen seconds better.

Most ergers, it seems, just train to race.

Because of this, fully trained, they fall as much as four seconds per 500m short of their potential over 2K, if they had taken the time to learn to row.

You will see the effect of my five years or so of foundational rowing when Mike and I go up and down the slide at 34 spm at WIRC.

He will pull 10 SPI, as I did back in 2002-2003.

I will pull 12 SPI.

At 34 SPI, the difference is 64 watts, 340 watts vs. 404 watts, 1:41 vs. 1:35.

Six seconds per 500m.

If I can get the rate to 35 spm in one the three races I will do between WIRC and the first week in March, I will push that margin to seven seconds per 500m.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Paul Hendershott was _faster_ at 60 than he was at 55, and he was much more experienced during this period than I was.

I have been getting better and better technically over the last seven years, which has more than compensating for any physical decline.

I didn't really start learning to row until I was 53.



When I was just 52, I pulled 6:27.5 in my first public erg race, only the third all out 2K I had ever done, and without any coaching whatsoever about how to do it.

At that time, the 50s lwt WR was Jean-Paul Tardieu's 6:31.6.

"Read on "slave-boy" " Paraphrasing the Meno*



http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=125619#125619

Consider asking yourself the question: "what happens to all WR holding athletes over 10 year increments in the 30-80 year-old range?"

answer: They slow down: All Of Them.

Let me anticipate your answer: "Not ranger"

..and my reply: "Show us."

This is the point of impass. Why? Simply because you will never show us.
This thread is effectively dead because nothing will happen beyond the claim that a "6:28 might be done by a 59 year-old lwt IF"

The point of the new thread is to show a far ranging fact (not a ranger supposition)

Savor your 6:4x.x 2k this weekend. That's all that's in the cards for you or anyone else in your position. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It could well be the best 55-59 lwt time of the year. It won't be the best 50-59 lwt time of the year.

Get it yet? No 6:28... ever again.

* http://www.sparknotes.com/philosophy/meno/summary.html

and: wikipedia:

"we have only to 'recollect' .. when alive. Such recollection requires Socratic questioning, which according to Plato is not 'teaching.' Socrates thus demonstrates his method of questioning and recollection by interrogating a slave who is ignorant of ..... The subsequent discussion shows the slave capable of learning a complex ... problem, because "he already has the questions in his soul."

[ranger]

Mike--

Your nay-saying is silly, an egregious embarrassment for a rower of your caliber and experience, given that your record on the erg is nothing like mine.

You do no service to the community you represent.

To each his own, I guess.

You'll go red-faced to your grave.

ranger

[ranger]

Savor your 6:4x.x 2k this weekend

Even if I break 6:40 this weekend, or nip the WR, as I think I easily will, it will be outrageous, given that all of my hard sharpening is still to come.

I will be doing hard distance rowing, distance trials, hard sharpening, and public 2K racing for the next seven weeks--all at weight (and progressively, below).

ranger

[hjs]

Paul Hendershott was _faster_ at 60 than he was at 55, and he was much more experienced during this period than I was.

I have been getting better and better technically over the last seven years, which has more than compensating for any physical decline.

I didn't really start learning to row until I was 53.



When I was just 52, I pulled 6:27.5 in my first public erg race, only the third all out 2K I had ever done, and without any coaching whatsoever about how to do it.

At that time, the 50s lwt WR was Jean-Paul Tardieu's 6:31.6.

"Read on "slave-boy" " Paraphrasing the Meno





http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=125619#125619

Consider asking yourself the question: "what happens to all WR holding athletes over 10 year increments in the 30-80 year-old range?"

answer: They slow down: All Of Them.

Let me anticipate your answer: "Not ranger"

..and my reply: "Show us."

He showed every year he was slowing down, last year was by far his worse, at the end he did get that 6.41 row, you know that bet loosing one, but on average he barely broke 7.00 and for I have skip his 7.30 season start.

[hjs]

Savor your 6:4x.x 2k this weekend

Even if I break 6:40 this weekend, or nip the WR, as I think I easily will, it will be outrageous, given that all of my hard sharpening is still to come.

I will be doing hard distance rowing, distance trials, hard sharpening, and public 2K racing for the next seven weeks--all at weight (and progressively, below).

ranger

Just like that string Of WR 's from last year.

[mikvan52]

Mike--

Your nay-saying is silly, an egregious embarrassment for a rower of your caliber and experience, given that your record on the erg is nothing like mine.

You do no service to the community you represent.

Attempted character assassination doesn't work here, Rich.
Just refute the analysis of the data in the charts (real and given) at;

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?p=125619#125619

I'll hold off on being redfaced until then

Why not start with a WR 55-59 500m piece ???... IOW: Basic speed that does not need sharpening to perform.

I repeat what is clear to everyone but you. "You are unable to WR in the 50-59 lwt age-group (Paul Siebach's time) and you are far less than likely to be able to WR in the 55-59 (Roy Brook's time).
THe scope of my other thread is to look at 10 year increments.

Syllogism
My major premise is (with-in the stated parameters in which you fall):
All lwt men 10 years older slow down.
My minor premise is:
one lwt man (ranger) is 10 years older.
My conclusion is:
the one lwt man is slower.

Discussion of morals has nothing to do with the the syllogism.
My analysis is not a personal attack on you. Why not respond in this vein?

[ranger]

Just refute the data

For those who care and know how, it has already been refuted.

ranger

[ranger]

one lwt man (ranger) is 10 years older.
My conclusion is:
the one lwt man is slower.

I was only a few pounds over 165 when I pulled 6:29.7 four years ago, without any distance rowing or sharpening, just on the basis of foundational training.

I pulled 1:38 @ 31 spm for 1700m and then kicked it in for 300m, 1:34 @ 34 spm.

So, no need to talk about ten years ago, when I wasn't even rowing yet, or even eight years ago when I didn't know how to row.

Lot of water under the bridge since then.

100 million meters?

Lot of water under the bridge since 2006, too.

50 million meters?

Great work.

My training has been perfect.

I am rowing right at my targets.

ranger

[aharmer]

Wow, this is going to be good no matter what happens. Rich, what are your specific workouts for today, tomorrow and Friday going to be? I know you have the time, would you be willing to tell us what they are and post a screenshot of said workouts? Today's is probably finished, but can be pulled from memory. I know you wont be racing your workouts, just regular workout data. It would be like a 'pregame' show before the big kickoff Saturday.

[mikvan52]

Just refute the data

For those who care and know how, it has already been refuted.

ranger

The etiquette of syllogistic argument is to repeat the entire syllogism which was:

My major premise is (with-in the stated parameters in which you fall):
All lwt men 10 years older slow down.
My minor premise is:
one lwt man (ranger) is 10 years older.
My conclusion is:
the one lwt man is slower.

I see no data or analysis or attempt at refutation...

Go to the data and percentages in the table Rich and show where I am wrong.
Just saying "you are wrong" is not a refutation.

Your best lwt time was 6:28 in ????
Your best lwt time was 6:41 in ???? How many years later?

What will be your best lwt time 10 years after the the 6:28?
What will be your best lwt time this year after ? # of years?

The data will be forthcoming w/o your agreement to provide it... that is: If you show up and complete any 2k at a public venue.

Remember too, that you are a subset of the entire data set (WR holders)
You aren't different than other WR holding lwt man.

Do you think you are? If so provide data and show your collection method:
"You may now open your blue book. Pick up your pencil."

[macroth]

R. Cureton is now registered for WIRC.

It's on like Donkey Kong!!!

[ranger]

Wow, this is going to be good no matter what happens. Rich, what are your specific workouts for today, tomorrow and Friday going to be? I know you have the time, would you be willing to tell us what they are and post a screenshot of said workouts? Today's is probably finished, but can be pulled from memory. I know you wont be racing your workouts, just regular workout data. It would be like a 'pregame' show before the big kickoff Saturday.

Lots of race pace rowing today (1:37 @ 32 spm), in an informal fartlek pattern, just to loosen up the engines, after 10K or so of my normal distance work starting at 1:52 @ 22 spm, working up to 1:40 @ 30 spm.

Then a two-hour bike.

Race pace 500s tomorrow and Friday.

ranger