6:28 2K

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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chgoss
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Post by chgoss » January 14th, 2010, 11:13 pm

mikvan52 wrote:{{post removed by author because of pointlessness of even discussing this any more}}

Any taker on a bet that ranger will never row a lwt 6:28 2k from here to his dieing day? I'll give odds.
sure, I'll bet you that he'll never row a lwt 6:28 2k !!!
:wink:

but, that's not what you meant :lol:

cya Sunday MIKE!
52 M 6'2" 200 lbs 2k-7:03.9
1 Corinthians 15:3-8

ranger
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Post by ranger » January 15th, 2010, 4:42 am

chgoss wrote:
ranger wrote:Well, I could probably sit down and do 1:26 or so right now, but what is the use of a slow 500m such as that?
It tells you how fast you can do a 500m piece today. Thats an extremely useful piece of information.

or, not

:D
Sure, if you're an idiot, don't know anything about training, and don't care much about ever reaching your potential as a rower.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Post by ranger » January 15th, 2010, 4:45 am

rjw wrote:Ranger - just because it is timed doesn't make it a race.
Pehaps.

And just because it's a race doesn't make it good training.

If you want to do your best in rowing, you need to do good training.

To each his own.

If you want to f..k up your chances at succeeding, be my guest.

I don't have to come along with you and fail, too.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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hjs
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Post by hjs » January 15th, 2010, 4:48 am

ranger wrote:
rjw wrote:Ranger - just because it is timed doesn't make it a race.
Pehaps.

And just because it's a race doesn't make it good training.

If you want to do your best in rowing, you need to do good training.

To each his own.

If you want to f..k up your chances at succeeding, be my guest.

I don't have to come along with you and fail, too.

ranger
Indeed , you are perfectly capable to fail on your own, 7 years in a row now :wink:

almost 2 olympic cycles, for many people often a complete sport carriere.

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Post by ranger » January 15th, 2010, 5:16 am

For elite rowers, who spend a lot of time at the sport, try to be the best they can be, and therefore don't have any glaring problems with either fitness or technique, give or take a bit at certain points, training bands on the erg (UT2, UT1, AT, TR, AN, max) come every five seconds per 500m, and the whole edifice stares you in the face like the rock of Gibralter.

To get better, you can work at any point in the edifice, trying to get better at scaling whatever mountain is involved there, but in the end, because of these relationships among the training bands, you only get better when you move the whole edifice.

The question is, then, how can you do this, personally, given who and what you are, etc., given your strengths and weaknesses, rowing and athletic history, and so forth?

Not an easy question.

For Mike VB, for instance, if he now does UT2 at 1:57 or so, max is pretty unshakably 1:32, that is, UT2 - 25. Then the other training bands array themselves in between: UT1 is 1:52, AT is 1:47, TR is 1:42, AN is 1:37.

If Mike wants to move this whole edifice in order to get better, he could chip away at any point, hoping to move that foothill.

On the UT2 end, the issue is efficiency and aerobic capacity.

On the max end, the issue is effectiveness and anaerobic capacity.

Pick your poison!

Most people, I think, choose to move the whole edifice by working from the UT2 (efficiency and aerobic capacity) end, although this is certainly tricky.

As Mike Caviston rightly urges, to _improve_ your UT2 rowing, you can't just rest and row slowly when you train.

You need to pull hard and rev the heart rate to frightening heights, day after day, over excruciatingly long distances.

Sure, you row at low rates, but you don't use your 2K stroking power or a UT2 heart rate when you do so.

Something else entirely is involved--overload, severe stress, tons of sweat and aching muscles, and a lot of other unpleasantness.

Undoubtedly, this is why he got fired here at UM as a trainer.

Telling the truth about how to be good at rowing can be pretty frightening for the normal undergraduate, however talented they might be at rowing and however much the scholarship they have depends on them doing well in the sport.

As Nav points out, depending on who you are, you might also try to move the whole edifice by working from the max end.

I suppose that's what he tries to do.

But how to do this is pretty tricky, too, I think, and I am not sure than Nav has found any way to do it that is comparable to the way Caviston's Level 4 rowing or my RWBs (rowing with breaks) can improve your UT2 rowing.

Undoubtedly, there are probably some ways out there that this could be done, though, and if someone ever discovers them, they will make a great contribution to what we know about training for the sport.

Is it weights that improve your explosive power and therefore top-end speed?

Is it squats?

Is it certain kinds of work on technique, so that you can get the rate way, way up with less stress?

Got me.

Even more intriguing, though, and baffling, really, is the fact that the two ends of the training edifice are so intimately connected that, in most cases, if you move one end, you move the other end, too.

If your fitness is high and your rowing balanced and technically sound, effectiveness aids efficiency, and vice versa.

Improve one and you improve the other.

So, that's training for rowing in a nutshell.

Enjoy!

:lol: :lol:

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see, and God knows when it is going to happen fully and therefore factually in all of the races, but by improving my technique, I think I have succeeded in moving my training edifice as much as four seconds per 500m.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that this magnitude of improvement is available to any novice who, being new at the sport, now rows poorly but is willing to work long and hard (in any and every way possible) to learn to row well.

Even in erging, "technique" is important.

The relation of what you do to how the erg responds is not entirely transparent.

You can't just do any old thing and get the best result.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on January 15th, 2010, 6:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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NavigationHazard
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Post by NavigationHazard » January 15th, 2010, 5:25 am

ranger, posted Jan 13 wrote: ... as I have mentioned ad nauseum, I haven't sharpened since 2003. Heck, I haven't even been doing distance rowing, until the last six months. I have just been doing low rate, foundational training, working on technique. On the basis of foundational training only, last year, I pulled 6:41 for 2K.
ranger, posted Jan 14 wrote:Only idiots do random races outside the natural progression and flow of their training....To each his own.

ranger
Finally a candid self-assessment. Let's play "complete the syllogism." If only idiots do A, and you did A, _______________ (your answer here).

ps. The proper conclusion is NOT to avoid racing for another seven years. It's to change your cockamamie ideas about training.
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Post by ranger » January 15th, 2010, 6:00 am

On the aerobic and efficiency end of the edifice, which I have been working on for the last six months, including my work OTW, the trick, as PaulS points out, is to get the rate as 26 spm at a UT2 HR, while holding your technique (effectiveness, technique, stroking power, etc.) together.

Get the rate up!

That's what PaulS has his rowers learn to do by holding to 10 MPS, e.g., 1:55 @ 26 spm (8.8 SPI) at a UT2 HR, e.g., for warm ups.

Don't trudge along at low rates!

That is inappropriate at this point in training!

Low rates are for working on effectiveness, not efficiency.

My only objection to this is that Paul omits any work on effectivenss and therefore his rowers bomb out early on the 10MPS ladder when they try to see how fast they can go with a top-end UTI HR and 10 MPS.

8.8 SPI is ineffective rowing.

Trying to row 26 spm with a UT2 HR is not an insubstantial exercise at all, though, and I am all for it, both OTW and off.

When I hold my technique together and rate 26 spm with a light stroke, I go 1:47.

That's right around 11 SPI, not 8.8.

If you can hold your technique together at 11 SPI, then you can move up the 10 MPS ladder to find your comfort point when you do threshold rowing (top-end UT1), where pulling 10 MPS, I think, is indeed important to maximize efficiency.

11 SPI @ 10 MPS is 1:43.

That's what I do now.

Mike VB is pulling 11 SPI but he is doing it at 19 SPI and 1:57 at his UT2 HR.

That isn't being very efficient--technically, skeletal-muscularly, and/or physiologically, who knows which (or all of the above).

If he could rev the rate to 26 spm, hold that 11 SPI in his stroke, and keep that HR in and around 128 bpm, then he'd be golden.

The question is: How in the world is he going to train to get an improvement of that magnitude?

That's 10 seconds per 500m!

Good luck with it, Mike.

ranger
Last edited by ranger on January 15th, 2010, 6:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ranger » January 15th, 2010, 6:16 am

NavigationHazard wrote:
ranger, posted Jan 13 wrote: ... as I have mentioned ad nauseum, I haven't sharpened since 2003. Heck, I haven't even been doing distance rowing, until the last six months. I have just been doing low rate, foundational training, working on technique. On the basis of foundational training only, last year, I pulled 6:41 for 2K.
ranger, posted Jan 14 wrote:Only idiots do random races outside the natural progression and flow of their training....To each his own.

ranger
Finally a candid self-assessment. Let's play "complete the syllogism." If only idiots do A, and you did A, _______________ (your answer here)..
Yes, I caved in to social pressure.

All the idiots here, who race their training, have been a bad influence and, however slightly, I have given up my training for a couple months in racing season each year so that I can enjoy some of the fun in the idiotic social scene.

I also like to eat.

:lol: :lol:

Life if full of temptations.

Beware!

For the dedicated rower, bad influences are everywhere!

Evil lurks around every corner and needs to be countered with forces for the good.

:lol: :lol:

May the force be with you.

ranger
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Post by ranger » January 15th, 2010, 6:29 am

NavigationHazard wrote:The proper conclusion is NOT to avoid racing for another seven years
??

This year, I am already registered for four races and will try to pick up a fifth.

Last year I had the best 2K time in my age and weight division by three seconds, without even preparing for it, just on the basis of foundational training, without any distance training or sharpening.

This year, I have added six months of distance rowing.

For the next six weeks, I will be sharpening.

I get about a dozen seconds each over 2K from distance rowing and sharpening.

So it will indeed to interesting to see what I can pull this year for 2K.

It looks as though my major competition, the WR-holder, has decided to wait seven years before he races again.

Lately, he has just been getting worse and worse.

In order to get better, he needs to fix his stroke, and racing gets in the way of good training, especially training aimed at improving technique.

:lol: :lol:

I am sympathetic with his dilemma.

:lol: :lol:

ranger
Last edited by ranger on January 15th, 2010, 6:35 am, edited 4 times in total.
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Post by hjs » January 15th, 2010, 6:32 am

ranger wrote:
NavigationHazard wrote:The proper conclusion is NOT to avoid racing for another seven years
??

Last year I had the best 2K time in my age and weight division by three seconds, without even preparing for it, just on the basis of foundational training, without any distance training or sharpening.

This year, I have added six months of distance rowing.

For the next six weeks, I will be sharpening.

ranger
But nevertheless you will be slower again. hahahahaha

Start thinking about your excuses :lol:

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Post by rjw » January 15th, 2010, 7:03 am

ranger wrote:.....On the aerobic and efficiency end of the edifice, which I have been working on for the last six months, including my work OTW, the trick, as PaulS points out, is to get the rate as 26 spm at a UT2 HR, while holding your technique (effectiveness, technique, stroking power, etc.) together.

Get the rate up!

That's what PaulS has his rowers learn to do by holding to 10 MPS, e.g., 1:55 @ 26 spm (8.8 SPI) at a UT2 HR, e.g., for warm ups.

Don't trudge along at low rates!

That is inappropriate at this point in training!

Low rates are for working on effectiveness, not efficiency.

My only objection to this is that Paul omits any work on effectivenss and therefore his rowers bomb out early on the 10MPS ladder when they try to see how fast they can go with a top-end UTI HR and 10 MPS.

.......
And you know about the way Paul Smith trains his athletes how?

.............that's right, you don't!

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Post by ranger » January 15th, 2010, 7:05 am

NavigationHazard wrote:change your cockamamie ideas about training.
My "cockamamie" suggestion is that you only get better by working on your weaknesses, because it is hard to do.

Your _sensible_ suggestion is that you can only have fun if you parade your strengths and forget your weaknesses, because it is easy to do.

It will be interesting to see the results of these different training strategies.

In the long run, I think my strategy will turn out to be about a half a minute faster over 2K, relative to my competition and historical standards.

My result, I think, will be about 20 seconds under WR pace; your suggestion will be 10 seconds over WR pace.

But then again, that prediction might just be "cockamamie."

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Post by snowleopard » January 15th, 2010, 7:23 am

ranger wrote:But then again, that prediction might just be "cockamamie."
:idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

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Post by NavigationHazard » January 15th, 2010, 7:55 am

And my "suggestion" is what, again?

I don't believe I've made one. I haven't predicted any 2k result for you this year, and I haven't made public any prediction for myself.

As for working on weaknesses, your main one is that you're an underperforming bloviator on the Forums with a world-class ability to hide his fear of failure behind a swamp of verbiage. You might want to work on that one first and foremost. Not by improving the postings, but by actually performing something you say you're going to do.

Once that's dealt with we can go on to reading comprehension, spelling, editing skills, basic math, elementary physiology, etc. etc. ....
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Post by mikvan52 » January 15th, 2010, 8:49 am

chgoss wrote:
mikvan52 wrote:{{post removed by author because of pointlessness of even discussing this any more}}

Any taker on a bet him that ranger will never row a lwt 6:28 2k from here to his dieing day? I'll give odds.
sure, I'll bet you that he'll never row a lwt 6:28 2k !!!
:wink:

but, that's not what you meant :lol:

cya Sunday MIKE!
Isn't it great actually seeing people doing things? (Instead of merely saying " I think I will do something a long time from now")

SEE you Sunday.

by the way: Let me give ranger the benefit of as bet he'd take, lose, and never have to pay.
An open bet for the rest of his life.

I bet him $10,000.00 that he will never:

1. Weigh-in (witnessed)at less than 165 lbs & then immediately (not 2 hrs later or some such garbage):
2. Sit down on an erg and row 500m non-stop at a time of less than 1:23.0 or faster

He'll take this bet because he can say 'til his dying day that it's his long range(r) plan to do it eventually.
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American 60's Lwt. 2k record (6:49) •• set WRs for 60' & FM •• ~ now surpassed
repeat combined Masters Lwt & Hwt 1x National Champion E & F class
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