6:28 2K

[mikvan52]

his physical achievements are worthy of respect.

Here's a list of his achievements:

6:37 in recent years as a heavyweight... The record is held by Dick Cashin and is nearly 20 seconds faster

6:41 as a lightweight in a contest of his choice... no major meets

I agree these are well worthy of respect..

There are others worthy of discussion and respect:

Indoor Rower | Individual and Race Results | 2000m | Men's | Lightweight | Ages 50-59 | 2009 Season

1 Paul Siebach 50 Oakton VA USA 6:26.3* RACE
2 Hammachi Mouss. 50 GBR 6:38.6 RACE
3 Frederik(derik) Mare 50 GBR 6:39.5 RACE
4 Bernhard Kohler 50 DEU 6:40.7 RACE
5 Rich Cureton 58 Ann Arbor MI USA 6:41.0 RACE
6 Frede Nørskov Nielsen 54 DEN 6:41.5 RACE
7 Patrick Desjardins 51 Victoria CAN 6:42.5 IND
8 Rocketroy Brook 57 GBR 6:43.8 RACE

Does ranger's 2k accomplishment jump out at you when you look at this list? It's great but not head and shoulders above the rest.

I hope Nielsen will be at Boston this year.
Barring mishap (not snow) I will be.

Paul Siebach's time set a new WR. We should talk about him more.

[Bob S.]

You bring up a good point. However, newbies are constantly told to work on technique first and what program has 3 interval sessions a week? Pete and WP both have 2. Running is much more abusive then rowing. One needs a lot of time to build miles and speed running. It is not so important in rowing.

But you are right about building distance and technique. It should be emphasized more.

The IP does a much better job at that. Neither the PP nor the WP were really designed for beginners. The IP has a lot of UT2, UT1, and AT sessions before it introduces any TR and AN sessions. I found it very useful for myself in building back up after a several month period of only a little sporadic training on the erg.

Bob S.

[ranger]

Workout#1: 2k-1500-1k no handle down during the 8' paddles in between
2000m piece
500m in 1:47.6 @ 25 spm (1:49 goal pace) - 140 bpm
500m in 1:48.2 @ 25 (1:49) - 147
500m in 1:45.8 @ 27 (1:47) - 152
500m in 1:43.0 @ 29 (1:45) - 155
.
paddle = 1792 meters in 8' - 120 bpm
.
1500m piece
500m in 1:46.3 @ 27 (1:47) - 154
500m in 1:44.2 @ 30 (1:45) - 160
500m in 1:41.0 @ 36 (1:43) - 158
.
paddle = 1618m in 8' - 120 bpm
.
1000m piece
500m in 1:44.7 @ 29 (1:45) - 150
500m in 1:40.9 @ 38 (1:42) - 159
.
8' cool down... 1371 meters 115-125 bpm at varying paces

or this:

Workout #2
1' on/65 seconds off

Set#1
8:00 - 2454m - 1:37.7 (2k pace minus 1.5 sec) - 29 spm - 149 bpm avg

1. 302m - 1:39.3 - 30 - 140bpm
2. 302m - 1:39.3 - 29 - 143
3. 303m - 1:39.0 - 28 - 148
4. 310m - 1:36.7 - 30 - 151
5. 305m - 1:38.3 - 29 - 149
6. 307m - 1:37.7 - 29 - 152
7. 310m - 1:36.7 - 30 - 155
8. 316m - 1:34.9 - 32 - 156
r. 1448m

Set#2
8:00 - 2486m - 1:36.5 ( 2k pace minus 2.8 sec) - 31 spm - 154 bpm (7 bpm under max)

1. 301m - 1:39.6 - 29 - 146
2. 308m - 1:37.4 - 30 - 151
3. 314m - 1:35.5 - 32 - 155
4. 312m - 1:36.1 - 32 - 154
5. 312m - 1:36.1 - 32 - 155
6. 312m - 1:36.1 - 32 - 157
7. 313m - 1:35.8 - 32 - 156
8. 315m - 1:35.2 - 34 - 158
r.1251m

Yes, you are certainly working hard, way up over your anaerobic threshold.

I am not that far along yet, but I will be happy to share my TR and AN workouts with you when I get there in February.

What kind of base did you begin with?

For instance, (1) what can you do for 90min @ 20-24 spm and a 125 bpm HR?

and (2) what can you do for 60min @ 25-30 spm and a 145 bpm HR?

Given this base, are you happy with the sharpening you are doing now?

By and large, sharpening just brings out the potential you have developed in your base.

(1) is usually 2K + 15.

(2) is usually 2K + 10.

So, there's the _real_ story!

ranger

[ranger]

Here's a list of his achievements:

6:37 in recent years as a heavyweight

No, 6:29.7 in 2006, when I was 55.

This sub-6:30 2K was also without any distance rowing or sharpening, so without any workouts like the one you just reported, or without any workouts like the ones I have just asked you about.

By and large, my training for this sub-6:30 2K was just pulling hard (13-16 SPI) at low rates (16-22 spm), working on technique.

I was at weight the week after this sub-6:30 2K, so Cashin, I suspect, is, what, six inches taller than I am and 50 pounds heavier?

No 55s erger my size has come anywhere near going sub-6:30, much less without preparing for it.

I get about a dozen seconds each over 2K from distance rowing and sharpening.

So it will indeed be interesting to see what I can do now when I am fully trained/prepared, with distance rowing and sharpening, in addition to low rate, foundational work.

My foundational rowing is now complete.

For six months or so, I have just been doing distance rowing (25-30 spm).

I will be sharpening (31-36 spm) for the next six weeks.

As far as I can tell, I never have to do any more foundational training.

I now row well (i.e., at full slide, I pull 13 SPI).

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

BTW, what is "realistic" (or not) as a 2K goal can be read right off of your UT2 and UT1 rowing, the questions (1) and (2) I asked you about.

No reason to wait until you sharpen to see what this might be.

UT2 is usually 2K + 15.

UT1 is usually 2K + 10.

For instance, if you can row 90min, 1:49 @ 20-24 spm and 70% HRR and 60mn 1:44 @ 25-30 spm, 6:16/1:34 is a "realistic" 2K goal.

Doesn't matter who you are (in terms of gender, height, weight, age, or rowing history).

Doesn't even matter, either, what you write on the internet.

ranger

[ranger]

The issue with UT rowing, I think, is rate.

And on this matter, I think that PaulS has it right.

Once you leave foundational rowing (i.e. trudging at low rates) behind and move on to distance rowing, row in and around 10MPS.

Be efficient!

Use as little effort as possible.

Be light and lively with your stroke.

For instance, I think a great accomplishment is being able to hold your technique together but rate as high as 26 spm with a UT2 HR.

Training with PaulS, this is what Rocket Roy does in a FM.

The problem is: PaulS doesn't have his rowers do any foundtaional rowing, so Rocket pulled the FM, 1:56 @ 26 spm.

That's only 8.5 SPI.

That's not holding your technique together.

If you row well (13 SPI for lightweights; 16 SPI for heavyweights) at low rates, when you do distance rowing, you want to lighten up 2 SPI to about 11 SPI, not 4.5 SPI to 8.5 SPI.

11 SPI @ 26 spm is 1:47, 9 seconds per 500m faster.

Mike VB pulls 1:47 @ 26 spm very nicely, but with his low maxHR of 163 bpm, his anaerobic threshold is right around my UT2 HR (145 bpm) and so he can only pull the 1:47 @ 26 for 5K, perhaps not even for that.

For Mike, 1:47 is AT, not UT2.

What Mike pulls at AT, I pull at UT2.

ranger

[hjs]

I am always amused when the newbies show up and defend ranger. The guy has been prattling endlessly for years--years--about how he is going to row faster. All he does is row slower, fail to pay up on bets he lost, and lie about his training. All these facts have been documented.

Sure, he has on occasion rowed fast for his age. But that's not the 6.16 he has been promising for several years. His fastest times are behind him. He probably will never break 6.40. If he truly sets out to row 6.28, he will handle down at the 1k mark give or take.

Hi Tom Indeed.

Last year he wend off at 6.28 pace in his first race.

Newbies, this is what happened after 500 he had to slow down and got a 7.30........

[ranger]

Training is not about real hard facts, it's how it felt and what you think about it.

Next time turn the pm over, lose the clock, stop weighing yourself and just go by feel.

Yes.

_Excellent_ advice.

At the limits, human performance is not "scientific."

It is about commitment, satisfaction, enjoyment, excitement, ambition, etc., feeling good, growing into your full potential, finding your talents and realizing them, self-realization, etc., things that have nothing to do with "real hard facts," times over set distances.

ranger

[hjs]

The thing with ranger is there is a kernel of good sense in what he says build a good style and a good base then move on to speed work he just seems to take it to extremes ...huge extremes this is the only sport I have ever taken part in that points beginners to plans loaded with intervals. I come from a running background and no-one would say to a beginner "ok start with 3 sets of intervals a week and 4 steady runs"It is very rare to see a beginner told to work on his tecnique build up the distance and row half a million meters then move on to the pete plan or similar, thats why when someone from another sport reads what Ranger suggests it seems reasonable.

Al ranger claimed to have done is intervall's. His so called "rowing with brakes" is row hard for a short while take a rest and repeat.
And you compare erging very well with running. There is not so much technique needed.
Look often at Afrikan runners, sometimes they make the stranges movement's. For instance at the steeplechase. They don,t do one techique training in their life but are super fast. It's all about talent for 99%.

And it's not what he says is 100 % wrong but his endless lying about what he is doing.

He never ever tells the truth, up untill the very last moment he keeps on lying, when he finally races the truth comes out.....................

He then goes in hiding for a few days, says nothing about the failier and opens a new thread..................

[ranger]

Paul Siebach's time set a new WR. We should talk about him more.

As is usually the case, Paul set his WR just when he turned 50, as did Graham Watt.

I didn't even start rowing until I was 50.

I didn't make weight until I was 51 and a half.

Even as a novice, not knowing how to row, I didn't have my best race as a lightweight (6:28) until I was a month shy of 53.

It takes a while to train yourself to do your best in a sport as technical as rowing.

That's what I have been trying to do over the last six years.

It will be interesting to see how this all comes out in the wash.

What will I pull now, fully trained and rowing well, now that I am no longer a novice erger?

What will Paul pull when he is 60?

We'll soon see.

Will Paul pull under 6:28 when he is just shy of 52?

Graham Watt didn't.

Can I do substantially better than I did back when I was 53, even though I am now 59?

The average decline in times among veterans in 1.7 seconds a year.

That predicts that Paul will pull 6:42 when he is 60.

What will I pull when I am 60?

My goal at the moment is 6:16.

ranger

[hjs]

You produced nothing at weight and you never will.

That's not 100% accurate Roy, he has pulled plenty of crap rows remember the one at WIRC a few years back, he promised a 6:16 and finished with a 7:11, he made more stops that Mr Stoppie on his way to work for the dept of stopping and starting!!

I am still waiting to sh*t those gold bars for you ranger when you do pull a Lwt 6:16 (Like that will be NEVER!)

....and so it goes

solid facts.........

[snowleopard]

That predicts that Paul will pull 6:42 when he is 60.

That will make him 20 seconds faster than you then


Say ranger, how did 16K @ 1:52/22 spm warmup go this morning? Where's the screenshot? If you can pull that one off then the 6:16 may not be pie in the sky.

Where's the daily weigh-in screenshot showing poundage and %age bodyfat?

[ranger]

That predicts that Paul will pull 6:42 when he is 60.[/quote[


Say ranger, how did 16K @ 1:52/22 spm warmup go this morning? Where's the screenshot? If you can pull that one off then the 6:16 may not be pie in the sky.

No, the 1:53 is easy. I have to do 1:49 at UT2 if I want to pull 6:16 for 2K.

That's what I worked on this morning.

It seems that I do best if I inflate the rate to 26 spm when I am doing UT2.

When I do this, even pulling lightly, I do 1:47.

11 SPI

ranger

[snowleopard]

Say ranger, how did 16K @ 1:52/22 spm warmup go this morning? Where's the screenshot? If you can pull that one off then the 6:16 may not be pie in the sky.

No, the 1:53 is easy. I have to do 1:49 at UT2 if I want to pull 6:16 for 2K.

That's what I worked on this morning.

It seems that I do best if I inflate the rate to 26 spm when I am doing UT2.

When I do this, even pulling lightly, I do 1:47.

11 SPI

ranger

Eh? Which bit of 16K @ 1:52/22 spm did you not understand? You said that it was just a UT2 warmup. Were you wrong about that?

26 spm is not a UT2 stroke rate.

[Steve G]

That predicts that Paul will pull 6:42 when he is 60.

That will make him 20 seconds faster than you then


Say ranger, how did 16K @ 1:52/22 spm warmup go this morning? Where's the screenshot? If you can pull that one off then the 6:16 may not be pie in the sky.

Where's the daily weigh-in screenshot showing poundage and %age bodyfat?

I was curious too about that daily workout if it would be posted, also the screenshot daily of his weight as promised!

Steve