The virtues of a rower.

General discussion on Training. How to get better on your erg, how to use your erg to get better at another sport, or anything else about improving your abilities.
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mikvan52
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Post by mikvan52 » January 5th, 2010, 12:02 pm

ranger wrote:
mikvan52 wrote:To excell on erg does not require team work
Rowing a 1x doesn't take teamwork, either.

Is that why you prefer it?

(snip)

If the essence of rowing is teamwork, why don't you drive miles to find teammates and do all of your rowing in big boats?

ranger
Let's remember that this thread is not about you or me.

quick answer: I still train & compete in team boats. For instance: I sculled in the E lwt 2x and the E 4x at Nationals last August in addition to 1x events.
I seldom sweep row anymore as I did as a youth.

I also drive (too) many miles.
:) :(

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Post by laur » January 5th, 2010, 3:17 pm

Good rowers have to be (at least a little) sadistic!

How else could you get through a 2k test/race? Or do 15x1min pieces? Or row a HM?

You need to have the mental ability to force your body to do something that it does not want to do.

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Post by snowleopard » January 5th, 2010, 4:21 pm

laur wrote:Good rowers have to be (at least a little) sadistic!

How else could you get through a 2k test/race? Or do 15x1min pieces? Or row a HM?

You need to have the mental ability to force your body to do something that it does not want to do.
I think you mean masochistic. Coaches are the sadists :lol:

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Post by eliotsmith » January 5th, 2010, 4:28 pm

snowleopard wrote:I think you mean masochistic. Coaches are the sadists :lol:
:D:D

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Post by Nosmo » January 5th, 2010, 5:52 pm

I'd like to second the value of teamwork. Even if one rows primarily in a single, rowing in groups and contributing to the club usually is a big part of rowing. The same qualities that make good team members also help other individual athletes and grow the sport.

One needs to trust those who one rows with. You can hate their guts and the boat can still work well. It is better to row with someone you hate but trust then someone you really like and don't trust.

I do consider being able to row with others an important part of being a good (OTW) rower. Being good in a 1x only is a limited definition of a good rower.

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Post by Tinus » January 5th, 2010, 7:32 pm

laur wrote:Good rowers have to be (at least a little) sadistic!

How else could you get through a 2k test/race? Or do 15x1min pieces? Or row a HM?

You need to have the mental ability to force your body to do something that it does not want to do.
No, rowers are drug addicts. They don't do it for the pain per se but for all the chemicals which the body makes to relieve this pain.

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Post by Bob S. » January 5th, 2010, 7:38 pm

Nosmo wrote: I do consider being able to row with others an important part of being a good (OTW) rower. Being good in a 1x only is a limited definition of a good rower.
In my early days of rowing as a sport, it was always referred to as "crew" rather than rowing. There were no college singles competitions on the west coast. In fact there was nothing but eights in those days. It didn't occur to me at the time that single sculls rowers were sort of excluded by that term.

Bob S.

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Post by eliotsmith » January 6th, 2010, 8:25 am

ranger wrote:
chgoss wrote:I agree that to "be a good rower" means more than your 2k time and technical proficiency (or lack thereof).

To your list, I would add that one should add value to the rowing community in some (great or small) way. Not talking about altruism mind you, just that in the process of pursuing ones own self interest, that the net impact on the broader community should be positive.
Proficiency and the interests of a community are often at loggerheads, so much so that the community lies to itself, repeatedly and incorrigibly, about what it takes to be proficient.

A sad story on this topic is Mike Caviston's move to California from here at the University of Michigan.

University education in general at the moment is an even sadder story, one that Mike didn't escape, either.

With the Wolverine Plan, Mike created a system of training that could indeed lift his collegiate rowers to high levels of achievement/proficiency.

He took the same "hard line" in the classroom, doing in good faith what he thought would make his students proficient.

As it turns out, though, neither his students nor his rowers appreciated his honesty about the relation between proficiency/achievement and what they need, and therefore should, do to earn it.

So he lost his job.

He was an instructor, not a professor.

Instructors don't have tenure, which protects the jobs of faculty at research institutions such as Michigan from such foolish maliciousness.

The end of he story is even more telling, though.

As it turns out, after Mike left, the proficiency of the women's varsity crew at Michigan fell off precipitously.

So what did the Michigan coaches and trainers do?

They put their women varsity rowers back on the Wolverine Plan, stealing Mike's ideas but without rehiring him (even if he wanted to be rehired by folks who would do such s thing).

There we have the typical actions of a community, I think, as opposed to an individual.

Which would you prefer?

The same thing is happening in the classroom at Michigan more generally.

At Michigan, we are now all being told to dumb down the material and inflate grades so that students will enjoy themselves and feel good about themselves, even if they fall far short of being proficient.

If we don't, we lose our jobs (if we don't have tenure), or if we have tenure, we lose the possibilities of advancing in our careers.

Those who make concessions to the low standards of the community, ignoring proficiency altogether, are praised and supported by the powers that be.

Societies, if at all inclusive, have never been aristocracies (social groups dedicated to the "good"), much less the type of stoic tyrannies that are characteristic of the ethical commitments of all top artists, athletes, scholars, scientists, and most obviously, I guess, soldiers.

High athletic (artistic, intellectual, scientific, scholarly, military) proficiency is all about doing what we need and should do in order earn it, not at all about what we can, and therefore might do, if we happen to want to.

ranger
ranger wrote:All societies will use any and every means at their disposal to search out and eliminate/destroy anything or anyone that undermines their rationalizations, artificially constructed to protect their own self-interests, for avoiding what is _really_ true, good, and/or beautiful; necessary, obligatory, and/or possible.

So it is, and I am afraid, so it will ever be.
I may be unleashing the hounds here but I think that ranger's opinion here is one we all must confront. For it breeds a selfishness that I think is harmful to any community. I would agree that stoicism is, in some sense, a virtue for a rower but first we must understand what we mean by that.

You seem to take the stoic argument here and try to be stoic in your agreement with it, although with a hedge that makes it characteristically unstoic, i.e. "I am afraid" in the last line. A stoic tyranny is a strange notion. Stoicism involves submitting to necessity without complaint. Two of the greatest stoics were Cicero and Cato the Younger, both statesmen who sacrificed many of their personal desires for the improvement of the Roman Republic and early Empire. They were autodidacts, as you claim to be, but in a better sense in that they accepted their dependence on their fellow citizens both for their very existence and for their education.

You say, "Societies, if at all inclusive, have never been aristocracies..." This is a truism. An aristocracy is not essentially a "social group dedicated to the 'good'." It is rule by the best. Thus, it is not inclusive. Nor should it be. It is only when we bow to complete democratization and inclusiveness that we see the lowering of communal standards. You recognize this well with your focus on the lowering of standards at Michigan.

My question for you now: Are all society's rationalizations artificially constructed? Your very profession seems to suggest the ability to teach and learn from others. Or perhaps you just found a job you like and could care less if you are part of an educational community. I suppose what I am implying and wanting to know is this: Is an educational society made up of artificially constructed rules without any standards for what must be in place for teaching and learning to happen? If so, then it would seem education itself is an impossibility. For if we can artificially construct any rules we wish for how teaching should happen, we can make harming equal to educating.

The same is true of stoicism. A stoic submits to what is necessary, but if what is necessary is simply what you teach yourself is necessary, then there can be no discussion and really no stoic. Knowing what is necessary is not itself necessary. Thus you as an autodidact are always open to error unless you submit to some standard outside of yourself. Hence the benefit a community can have on your rowing. If you were honest about your rowing, you might improve greatly by submitting your ideas for discussion. You don't do that however but talk like a true "professor". You don't discuss, you profess, end of story.

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Post by mikvan52 » January 6th, 2010, 9:47 am

(Interesting points about stoicism, leaving out the ranger bits)
humility + stoicism is good.
Subtract humility from stoicism and you don't have much at all.

So...

We have a proposed list about "good" rowers
So far we have these suggestions:

Good rowers
exhibit

integrity
obsession
a "can do" attitude
truthfulness
expect the worst (fatalism) (tongue in cheek (?))
good attitude
limit pride (humility)
w/o discussion: do what is needed and should be done in order to earn (their goals) (stoicism?)
Shall we then go on to discuss what a good rower ISN'T ? :?

I hope not.

Shall we go on to discuss whether one person fits the criteria or not?

I hope not.

"Not now Kato!"

Image

Rather, like a group of Clouseaus, let's continue our sleuthing.

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Post by ranger » January 6th, 2010, 11:29 am

eliotsmith wrote:My question for you now: Are all society's rationalizations artificially constructed? Your very profession seems to suggest the ability to teach and learn from others. Or perhaps you just found a job you like and could care less if you are part of an educational community. I suppose what I am implying and wanting to know is this: Is an educational society made up of artificially constructed rules without any standards for what must be in place for teaching and learning to happen? If so, then it would seem education itself is an impossibility. For if we can artificially construct any rules we wish for how teaching should happen, we can make harming equal to educating.
Yes, my anecdotes about Mike Caviston and education at Michigan are exactly implying the end of education.

If students are only willing to be taught what they already think, or what they want to learn, and administrators demand that faculty follow the wishes of students, then there is no education that can take place, especially if the students are young, inexperienced, spoiled, misguided, and therefore in great need of learning.

Mike's rowers wanted to be the best, but they thought they didn't have to do something as hard and rigorous as the Wolverine Plan in order be the best, even though it was evident that the Wolverine Plan was responsible for their excellence to that point, such as it was.

Mike's rowers were wrong, but they only realized it after they had lost the opportunity to learn from Mike as a result of their own attitudes and actions.

Being naive and misguided, they rejected wisdom for a foolish self-indulgence, in hope that ease could (and would) still lead to excellence, nonetheless.

Nope.

Of course, the most culpable folks are the head coaches at Michigan, who believed the naive rowers rather than Mike, who had already dragged himself through the proof that his methods worked.

It will take more time, but I think something similar will be the outcome of what is happening to education at the moment.

After a while, it will be realized that education that is controlled by students is no education at all.

Then we will go back to having faculties, curricula, standards of achievement, checks on content, etc., which actually benefit the student, rather than having just a student-run party, with the faculty invited for drinks and football games, if they would like to participate.

ranger
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Post by ranger » January 6th, 2010, 11:43 am

eliotsmith wrote:A stoic submits to what is necessary, but if what is necessary is simply what you teach yourself is necessary, then there can be no discussion and really no stoic. Knowing what is necessary is not itself necessary. Thus you as an autodidact are always open to error unless you submit to some standard outside of yourself. Hence the benefit a community can have on your rowing. If you were honest about your rowing, you might improve greatly by submitting your ideas for discussion. You don't do that however but talk like a true "professor". You don't discuss, you profess, end of story.
I have rejected your premise (e.g., see my previous post), so your argument here gets nowhere, at least as I see it.

The point about education and rowing communities is that they do indeed rationalize their activities, in most cases, egregiously so, and so don't at all speak the truth about major issues of concern.

Communities speak their self-interest, a different matter entirely.

I haven't discussed my ideas about training, just "professed" them?

Not so.

I have discussed my ideas about training endlessly, across some 20,000 posts on these C2 fora.

Back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, not in a one-way stream at all.

Clearly, though, how I train is not in the interests of the community.

Therefore, it has been rejected at every turn.

The objective standard outside of myself that (I think) I am submitting to is rowing itself, what it takes to improve, not the rationalizing self-interest of the rowing community.

We'll soon see if I have been right about this.

Following traditional training plans, all male WR-holders, 40-70, have just gotten worse.

None have ever substantially improved.

The training I have done is going to change that.

Clearly, my rowing 6:16 at 60 is not at all in the interest of the rowing community.

But so it goes.

The rowing community needs to be more stoic.

It needs to subject itself to objective standards outside its own self-interest.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

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Post by badocter » January 7th, 2010, 7:55 pm

Some of the qualities discussed so far seem more like personality traits than virtues. I did a google search a while back and found the following article on personality surveys done on rowers. ( I posted this on the UK forum quite some time ago)

http://www.bhfinder.com/Articles/Detail ... ofile.html

Short description of the temperamental styles is here:
http://www2.gsu.edu/~dschjb/wwwmbti.html

The part that has caught my attention is the difference on the J<->P dimension. The is the relevant excerpt from the above web site:
Judging (J) versus Perceptive (P)
Some of us like to postpone action and seek more data. Others like to make quick decisions.
Judging people are decisive, planful and selfregimented. They focus on completing the task, only want to know the essentials, and take action quickly (perhaps too quickly). They plan their work and work their plan. Deadlines are sacred. Their motto is: just do it!
Perceptive people are curious, adaptable, and spontaneous. They start many tasks, want to know everything about each task, and often find it difficult to complete a task. Deadlines are meant to be stretched. Their motto is: on the other hand ... .

Being at opposite ends of the spectrum on some dimensions may or may not make a rower any better, but it will impact the training approach they will prefer if left to their own devices. For example, the Pete Plan is a derived largely from the wolverine plan, but lacks the L4 sessions, pace progression is handled differently, and lacks 26 pages of instructions. If your an MBTI type J you will probably appreciate the detail of the WP and perhaps feel Mike should have written more, if on the other hand your are a type P you will probably think that even the Pete Plan is too structured.
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Post by eliotsmith » January 8th, 2010, 5:41 am

badocter wrote:Some of the qualities discussed so far seem more like personality traits than virtues.
Virtues and vices are not always personality traits but personality traits are always virtues or vices.

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Post by eliotsmith » January 8th, 2010, 5:50 am

ranger wrote:After a while, it will be realized that education that is controlled by students is no education at all.
What should it be controlled by as an alternative? Who are the rightful declarers of the standards? Isn't a teacher simply a more experienced student? How does all this fit it to your own autodidact enterprise. If you fail to improve your race times or even improve but fail to reach your stated goals, will you listen to advice from others on how you might improve or will you shut them down as usual and simply continue to reiterate your own ideas about what a good rower should do to improve? You say you submit to rowing itself as your "teacher". But it is easy to hear what you want the teacher to say when you ignore or silence the critics.

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Post by badocter » January 8th, 2010, 6:53 am

eliotsmith wrote:
badocter wrote:Some of the qualities discussed so far seem more like personality traits than virtues.
Virtues and vices are not always personality traits but personality traits are always virtues or vices.
I do not agree, at least not withing the context of MBTI typing. Each end of the E-I, N-S, T-F, and J-P dimensions has different strengthes and weaknesses, but each type is neutral in the base as near as I can tell. Being an ENTP does not make me intrinsically a better person or role model than an ISFJ. Likewise, within a single MBTI type it is possible to find both virtuous and virtueless examples of people.
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