6:28 2K

[ranger]

For an aerobic sport like running, cycling, swimming, rowing progress is very easy to see

This is just where we don't agree.

Rowing is not just an aerobic sport.

It is significantly technical and skeletal-muscular.

No, I have not increased my aerobic capacity.

My aerobic capacity is declining.

I have improved my technical (and skeletal-muscular) effectiveness and efficiency.

The primary problem with the major training plans for rowing is that they also assume that rowing is primarily aerobic.

They are wrong.

Rowing is primarily technical and skeletal-muscular.

ranger

[ranger]

Think my math is correct..

Yes, your math is correct, but your thinking isn't, as I pointed out, but you ignored.

Math is tautological.

Thinking isn't.

ranger

[hjs]

[hjs]

For an aerobic sport like running, cycling, swimming, rowing progress is very easy to see

This is just where we don't agree.
Rowing is not just an aerobic sport.
It is significantly technical and skeletal-muscular.
No, I have not increased my aerobic capacity.
My aerobic capacity is declining.
I have improved my technical (and skeletal-muscular) effectiveness and efficiency.
The primary problem with the major training plans for rowing is that they also assume that rowing is primarily aerobic.

They are wrong.
Rowing is primarily technical and skeletal-muscular.

ranger

What a good posting! a few things though, every sport that takes more then a few minutes is mainly aerobic.

Another thing, how comes that if you take a fit strong athlete on an erg he will pull a very decent result, for swimming of speedskating or cross country, you are right, but erging is not very techniquel at all, a few pointers and you will on your way, 3 months and you technique is close to perfect.

[chgoss]

Think my math is correct..

Yes, your math is correct, but your thinking isn't, as I pointed out, but you ignored.

Math is tautological.

Thinking isn't.

Dont think you are using that word correctly
Adj. 1. tautological - repetition of same sense in different words; "`a true fact' and `a free gift' are pleonastic expressions"; "the phrase `a beginner who has just started' is tautological";

in any case, using this:
http://www.machars.net/#paulslaw
A 6:30 2k predicts a 1:20:30 HM (1:54.5)

[hjs]

Think my math is correct..

Yes, your math is correct, but your thinking isn't, as I pointed out, but you ignored.

Math is tautological.

Thinking isn't.

Dont think you are using that word correctly
Adj. 1. tautological - repetition of same sense in different words; "`a true fact' and `a free gift' are pleonastic expressions"; "the phrase `a beginner who has just started' is tautological";

in any case, using this:
http://www.machars.net/#paulslaw
A 6:30 2k predicts a 1:20:30 HM (1:54.5)

How many coffee breaks are alowed during that HM ? bit slow eh. An average 6.30 erger will quite a bit faster

[ranger]

Yes, your math is correct, but your thinking isn't, as I pointed out, but you ignored.

Math is tautological.

Thinking isn't.

Dont think you are using that word correctly
Adj. 1. tautological - repetition of same sense in different words; "`a true fact' and `a free gift' are pleonastic expressions"; "the phrase `a beginner who has just started' is tautological";

in any case, using this:
http://www.machars.net/#paulslaw
A 6:30 2k predicts a 1:20:30 HM (1:54.5)

How many coffee breaks are alowed during that HM ? bit slow eh. An average 6.30 erger will quite a bit faster

The repetition of the same sense in different words?

Yes, just what math does.

2 + 2 = 4

ranger

[ranger]

erging is not very techniquel at all

I disagree.

Sure, you can get 90% of the stroke immediately.

But the other 10% is more difficult to master.

To get that final 10%, you have to overcone your technical weaknesses, rather than avoiding them.

Most people just avoid them.

Clearly, I did pretty well on the erg back in 2002-2003, when I was a novice and rowed like shit.

Pretty well, but not up to my full potential.

To row to my full potential, I had to master than 10% of the stroke I did poorly.

In particular, I needed to learn to sit up straight at the catch, use the full slide, lead with my legs, delay my back, use my heels in the middle of the drive, keep my head level, pull level with my arms into the finish, be quicker with my arms and back on the recovery, control the slide into the catch, and hold a pretty constant 2:1 ratio.

ranger

[chgoss]

Yes, your math is correct, but your thinking isn't, as I pointed out, but you ignored.

Math is tautological.

Thinking isn't.

Dont think you are using that word correctly
Adj. 1. tautological - repetition of same sense in different words; "`a true fact' and `a free gift' are pleonastic expressions"; "the phrase `a beginner who has just started' is tautological";

in any case, using this:
http://www.machars.net/#paulslaw
A 6:30 2k predicts a 1:20:30 HM (1:54.5)

How many coffee breaks are alowed during that HM ? bit slow eh. An average 6.30 erger will quite a bit faster

Did sound a bit slow to me as well.. but "Pauls Law" seems pretty widely accepted.

[hjs]

erging is not very techniquel at all

I disagree.

Sure, you can get 90% of the stroke immediately.

But the other 10% is more difficult to master.

ranger

The other 10 %, can be got in the first 3 months, after that it's juts like running, you only will improve marginaly. It's the engine that needs working to improve.

You yourself are a prime example, your style and results are solid proof

[ranger]

The other 10 %, can be got in the first 3 months

Sure, it _can_ be gotten immediately.

But it usually isn't.

Again, this is easy to check.

A lightweight who rows well technically pulls 13 SPI (a heavyweight, 16 SPI) pretty easily and naturally, even if they don't do it by preference (for other reasons) when they race.

Therefore, lightweight rowers who like to do a lot of 2:00 @ 20 spm (and such like, e.g., 2:10 @ 20 spm), don't row well.

If you are a lightweight and row well technically, 1:50 @ 20 spm (13 SPI) should come along with just a natural motion.

If you are a heavyweight and row well technically, 1:43 @ 20 spm (16 SPI) should come along with just a natural motion.

ranger

[tdekoekkoek]

OK. You're both wrong (and partially right). First of all I agree with Ranger, technique is a huge part of erging. I watch people erging and 90% of them have huge improvements they should make. And usually these are people that have been rowing for a long time. The mistakes they make are being compounded with continuous bad rowing, making correcting that much harder.

But as for the other stuff about what a lightweight should row and what a heavyweight should row is utter nonsense. First of all Lightweight and heavyweight can differ by as little as 1 pound! So instantly if they fall into one or another of the brackets they should pull 13 spi or 16 spi? Also not all athletes are elite athletes (by definition). If we all were elite, we would all be average and poor at the same time. So we cannot make generalizations about what is rowing well. There are also huge variations in size and strength. One athlete will trade strength for having greater V02 max and another will be stronger. Do you really think a 5'8" athlete should pull the same spi as a 6'8" athelete at the same rate? Yet it might be that they are still equally fast based on other factors, especially as they move to the water. Which is why Steve Tucker was for a long time the best or one of the best scullers in the country at 5'7".

Also some athletes are better at long distances and some at short. Which is why Mike Sivigny has beaten Mahe Drysdale 3 consectutive times in a head race, but has yet to make it to that level in the 2K. So these xxx predicts yyy are also suspect. some generalizations can be made, but take them with a grain of salt.

[hjs]

The other 10 %, can be got in the first 3 months

Sure, it _can_ be gotten immediately.

But it usually isn't.

Again, this is easy to check.

A lightweight who rows well technically pulls 13 SPI (a heavyweight, 16 SPI) pretty easily and naturally, even if they don't do it by preference (for other reasons) when they race.

Therefore, lightweight rowers who like to do a lot of 2:00 @ 20 spm (and such like, e.g., 2:10 @ 20 spm), don't row well.

If you are a lightweight and row well technically, 1:50 @ 20 spm (13 SPI) should come along with just a natural motion.

If you are a heavyweight and row well technically, 1:43 @ 20 spm (16 SPI) should come along with just a natural motion.

ranger

Just row and show the facts hahahahaha there are many ways to Rome, althoughs leads to I don,t no where.

[hjs]

OK. You're both wrong (and partially right). First of all I agree with Ranger, technique is a huge part of erging. I watch people erging and 90% of them have huge improvements they should make. And usually these are people that have been rowing for a long time. The mistakes they make are being compounded with continuous bad rowing, making correcting that much harder.

If erging is difficult to master how about things that are really hard to learn.
Some people row bad simply because they are not capebly to use there body right, they don,t have the talent to learnd that skill. It has not much to do with erging itself. If you have good control over you body you will erg very respectable from the very start. If you don,t pick it up fast you will never learn.

[chgoss]

OK. You're both wrong (and partially right). First of all I agree with Ranger, technique is a huge part of erging. I watch people erging and 90% of them have huge improvements they should make. And usually these are people that have been rowing for a long time. The mistakes they make are being compounded with continuous bad rowing, making correcting that much harder.

You think so? I'm not so convinced that technique in erging makes all that much difference.. I still struggle to get a sub 38 10k, which I did 3 month's after starting erging, and I work (fairly) hard on technique (row strapless, legs-back-arms..). My technique might not be good, but it's certainly better..

When we go to NE2KC at Rick's place, you can critique my erging and give me that extra 10seconds I need